Who would have Funk it? Fred Funk wins the Players Championship at Sawgrass. And Bob Tway shoots a 12 on the par 3 17th the last round. A new record, one that you don't want to hold. Poor Bob Tway, he shot 4,4,6,12 on that hole. That's 14 over on one hole. I know it's an island green, but have you ever shot a 12 on any hole? Not me. How about a 150 yard par 3? Not me. As for old Funky, he just proved that if you find the fairway and hit the greens in regulation, you can still win on tour. Good going Fred Funk.

I was really happy to see Fred pull it off. He's a class act. I have to second the notion of fairways and greens. Unfortunately, there are few PGA venues that grow the rough to penalize the big bombers. The leaderboard was a who's-who of guys that hit the fairways and green in reg: Scott Verplank, Funky, Joe Durant, Luke Donald, and even 'ol Tom Lehman (go MN golfers!)
I was looking for Corey Pavin to make a charge too! I hope the rough is six inches deep at the US Open and PGA this year. Time to reward golf that still resembles golf and not a long drive competition gone bad.

it was nice to see the older guys have a chance (older by pga standards anyway)

as for the 12, youve NEVER hit a 12 don?

its not fun, but ive done it, and ive seen it done.

some years back, i played with my wifes grandfather (who was early to mid sixties at the time but played SO straight)
we played at meadow hills in aurora, and he was killing me through 17.
i wasnt playing poorly, but i wasnt putting too well, and despite good distance, i lost some strokes hitting drives into trees.

meanwhile, he frustrated me by taking two strokes to hit it as far as my drive, but he only missed ONE fairway all day.
anyway, we get up tp 18 which is a 200 yard carry over water slightly uphill.
he launches three in the drink before playing almost LATERAL to try and go around the water.
he cards a 14 and erases the big lead he had on my. i felt bad.
i dont REMEMBER a 12 on my scorecard, but probably because i blocked it out!!
i bet its happened a time or two...

...so now ill just hope it never happens again.

don,
better knock on wood my friend. you said the magic word "never".
you may have just put a curse on yourself!

jake

Jake; If you re-read my post, you will not see the word "n_ver". Not any where is it typed. I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid. No 12's on my card so far, the highest I have shot as far as I can recall, is a 9. Handicaps and scores for one hole, should both be a single digit number. And I'm working on the handicap.

I guess the "big 4" started to believe all the hype about their faceoff..not a single one delivered. I think its time golf focused on the fundamentals (fairways and greens) and not the long bombs. Some of the 2nd and 3rd tier players are starting to get it together and its great to watch them outplay and generally outclass the big 4. Yes, records speak for themselves but with a new season starting there are a lot of guys to watch out for.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DON:
[qb]Jake; If you re-read my post, you will not see the word "n_ver". Not any where is it typed. I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid. No 12's on my card so far, the highest I have shot as far as I can recall, is a 9. Handicaps and scores for one hole, should both be a single digit number. And I'm working on the handicap. [/qb][/QUOTE]okay, i stand corrected!!

just thought i might gain a little psycholgical edge for our next meeting!

i have alot of making up to do to even the GGR colorado dual!

well, tomorrow looks like a no go, even for practice. disappointing to say the least, especially after my round a week ago.
the front is moving in now, and is supposed to be in full swing tomorrow.
cold, windy, AND rain or snow showers.
bad all the way around.

ill give you a call, and maybe if theyre wrong we can at least get some practice in, but im not very hopeful.
as bad as my back has been the last couple days that may be a good thing in disguise, though i sure am itching to play.
well, here's to hoping the weather guys are wrong.
it sure wouldnt be the first time.

jake

I say let the long bomber fire away. Just make the rough harder to get out of, and make the fairway narrow down some out past the 275-300 yard range. If a guy wants to hit it out there, fine, just make him hit it straight and in the short grass. And one more thing, I really believe it's time to change one of the rules. They need to make divots and sand filled divots in the fairways, "ground under repair". If you get relief from a sprinker head or rabbit hole, why not a divot in the fairway? Just a few weeks ago I saw one guy hit a nice drive only to have the ball stop in some other guys divot. He miss hit the second shot and lost any chance to win the match. You can fix a ball mark on the green, why not just move the ball over three inch left or right in the fairway and play the shot? He didn't leave the divot in the fairway, some other guy did, why should he have to pay for it? One more reason to hit your drive longer than anyone else, there are less divots to land in out there. Is that fair, and in the spirit of the game? I don't think so.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DON:
[qb]I say let the long bomber fire away. Just make the rough harder to get out of, and make the fairway narrow down some out past the 275-300 yard range. If a guy wants to hit it out there, fine, just make him hit it straight and in the short grass. And one more thing, I really believe it's time to change one of the rules. They need to make divots and sand filled divots in the fairways, "ground under repair". If you get relief from a sprinker head or rabbit hole, why not a divot in the fairway? Just a few weeks ago I saw one guy hit a nice drive only to have the ball stop in some other guys divot. He miss hit the second shot and lost any chance to win the match. You can fix a ball mark on the green, why not just move the ball over three inch left or right in the fairway and play the shot? He didn't leave the divot in the fairway, some other guy did, why should he have to pay for it? One more reason to hit your drive longer than anyone else, there are less divots to land in out there. Is that fair, and in the spirit of the game? I don't think so.[/qb][/QUOTE]don, i COMPLETELY agree with that proposed rule change, and in fact with most of the guys ive played with in the past we've agreed to play that way before teeing off.
you and i should do the same.

unfortunately, i doubt it will ever happen officially, and after seeing an interview on the subject i must say i KIND OF understand.
the interviewee (someone with the tour but i cant remember who) basically said that while the rule was of course unfairly penal to those who hit in divots, it was impossible to determine what CONSTITUTED a divot.
in casual play, sure, but in tournament play, how WOULD they do that?

in other words, one guy hits in a monster divot. unfair.
he gets a ground under repair free drop.

then, another player hits in a spot where the grass is a little tore up, but not severely.
is that too a free drop?

problem is that there's no accurate and fair way of determining what EXACTLY qualifies as a divot and would be deemed ground under repair, and because of that, this gentleman didnt think the rule would be changed. he compared it to hitting a nice tee shot and getting a bad bounce that kicks it off the fairway. i dont really think its the same thing, but i do understand his point.

for us though (we already play with BIG disadvantages compared to tournament players), its an easy enough rule to agree in your group to change.
in fact, golf magazine last month went so far as to SUGGEST that we do just that.

jake

If you only move the ball 3-4 inches left or right, doesn't it matter if it's a "divot" or almost a "divot"? And yes, I agree, we can move it out of a divot if that comes into play in our matchs. I'm out there to have fun and improve my game, not win the US Open. At least not yet! If I'm playing in a tourniment, I'll be glad to follow all the rules, but I'm not in a tourniment this week, so I can move the ball out of a divot if we decide that if fair. Last week if you remember I mentioned that I carry a "clean" ball in my pocket to use for putting on the green. It's the same ball I play with on the course, just clean. Our playing partner mentioned that that was in fact against the rules. If you remember, I told him that as long as I don't have a caddie to clean the ball for me, I'm going to use a clean one and save everyone some time. No one wants to be held up waiting for the group ahead of them on the green, and useing a clean ball helps me save time on every hole. I think that's smart golf, not cheating. And I'm not even sure it's against the rules. You can replace your ball with the same model once you are on the green or if you declare the present ball to be damaged. Is that not correct? Any USGA rule hounds out there with a ruling on this?

I'm by no means a "Rules Hound" but I don't like where your matches are headed (sorry.) If you want to improve your game, that includes learning to hit shots out of less than desirable lies. A divot would certainly fall under that category. Ever hit out of a divot at the range intentionally? That's how you improve your game. Don't take the driving range to the course! You aren't doing yourself any favors by improving your lie. If there are tree roots and don't want to break your wrists, that's another issue... but if you're in the fairway its just a bad break. Think back to the origins of this game. They probably hit it out of piles of sheep crap!
And yes, you are breaking the rules by putting out with a different ball. It doesn't take much time to wipe a ball off. I just spit on it and use my thumb! Pants work well too. Be a man!
Suppose someone had a "special" ball that rolled straight no matter what (humor me, I know we're going way out on a limb.) How could you tell if it had the same logo as the ball played into the green. Or suppose it was a softer ball with more feel that putted better than the rock that got you to the par 5 in two and they ahd the same logo placed on that ball? There is room for cheatin' there!
I'm not a huge "rules" guy (after all, range finders are technically against the rules) but some of them make sense and keep things equitable and easier to enforce fairness. If everyone has access to the same equipment, that's one thing. If you can't tell for certain what the equipment is, that's another! I always like to keep a clean .860 COR driver in my bag to speed play!

well, it is technically illegal to replace your ball with another on the green even if it is the same brand.

again, thats TECHNICALLY, and during tournament play id be more than happy to adhere, but in out rounds, i agree COMPLETELY that thats an acceptable thing to do.
bottom line is that im in favor of anything that makes a round more pleasant and quicker as long as it doesnt give us an unfair advantage, and that clearly doesnt.

like you said, a pga player has a caddie there to clean that ball.
a pga player has a caddie to give him EXACT distances.

we dont, so to replace a ball with the same model or to use gps or a laserfinder is well within OUR rules.

jake

well divots, i must politely disagree.

kinda funny actually, but im quite the opposite.

look, we're playing on a muni here where ZERO effort is made most times to replace divots. further, some of them are monsters and SHOULDNT be that way.
in addition, some spots of grass are HORRIBLY tore up but not marked.
to take those as free drops as ground under repair is acceptable to me, since they SHOULDNT be in that condition, or they SHOULD be marked. if a ball sits in a reasonable divot on the fairway, i play it, but if that grass is hacked completely, to me, its ground under repair not marked.

as for the tree roots, thats where i DO play the ball as it lies!!
if i break my hand or my club, thats my risk.
if i dont like that, i take an unplayable lie and my penalty.
why?

because those trees are SUPPOSED to be there.

just last week with don, i had an awful tee shot on i believe #3 (well, almost ALL my shots were bad last week)
anyway, its a long par five with trees and a fence on the right and houses left.
i sliced it, it hit off the fence, and landed squarely under a tree with a tree root just front right of the ball.
that tree root is IN NO WAY ground under repair, since thats the condition its SUPPOSED to be in.
i thought about taking an unplayable lie (didnt think about my hands, but i did think about my new clubs!!), but decided to hit a 5 iron soft with an abbreviated finish.
i remember it so well because it was one of the only GOOD shots i hit all day.

anyway pal, im not being argumentative, just noting that there are different ways to view it.

im not a rules hound either, but i do try to play rounds that are as fair and ACCURATE as possible.
if i have a scuffed ball on the green because i bladed it, ill clean and play it.
if i have a ball thats just dirty, ill replace it with a clean one SIMPLY because its easier that way.
if i had a caddie, i wouldnt use a gps system, but since i dont, i have no problem with one.
they do EXACTLY the same thing as a caddie does as far as giving distance.

anyway, thats my .02.

jake

bottom line is that im in favor of anything that makes a round more pleasant and quicker as long as it doesnt give us an unfair advantage, and that clearly doesnt.

like you said, a pga player has a caddie there to clean that ball.

Hopefully you feel the improvement of one's lie is an unfair advantage. I've never thought that cleaning my ball on the green was unpleasant or took extraordinary amounts of time. I'm sure you can play within the rules in this instance, can't you? Once the compromises begin, there is too much temptation for them to continue. Oh, somebody didn't rake this bunker properly, or There's a bit of a puddle over here, I'm gonna take a free drop, or He talked in my backswing, etc. I know you don't do those things, but why not play within the rules if its such an easy thing to do?

Seems we're posting simultaneously...

[QUOTE]look, we're playing on a muni here where ZERO effort is made most times to replace divots. further, some of them are monsters and SHOULDNT be that way.
in addition, some spots of grass are HORRIBLY tore up but not marked.
to take those as free drops as ground under repair is acceptable to me, since they SHOULDNT be in that condition, or they SHOULD be marked. if a ball sits in a reasonable divot on the fairway, i play it, but if that grass is hacked completely, to me, its ground under repair not marked. [/QUOTE]What's a "reasonable" divot? Who's to say that the divots shouldn't be there? Seems this is the norm for this course and it should be expected. I'm a muni/cheap public player for the most part too. You just come to expect it. Saving your hands/wrists in light of recent medical costs in this country should tell you it's much cheaper to have your club snap than your wrist!
There is an element of luck/misfortune to this game too, there always has been. The tree root thing may have been a bad example, but I was trying to make the point that as long as personal injury will not result, then play it as it lies. I know the fairway "craters" of which you speak. You could break a wrist in some of them. GUR as long as your playing partner is ok with it. I'm just saying play as close to the rules as reasonably possible is all. I don't crack my rules book on the course, but I know if I'm stretching things a bit...

Man,
I played today and I shot horrible! 120! I was all over the place! I think I'm quitting the game of golf!

i think essentially we agree, just maybe not in the details.
i absolutely DO play by the rules, and there's just a couple cases where they get bent and/or broken, and then its only to LEVEL the playing field as compared to tour pro's or tournament play with caddies.

i also see your point about where the line gets drawn.
thats where the honor code comes into play, and ive played with people who break it CONSTANTLY. im sure we all have.
you know, the guy who's on a side hill lie and kicks it down the hill.
the guy who carries 16 clubs (3 of which are illegal) of which his best one is his foot wedge, takes 10 foot gimmes, marks his ball 6 inches in front of where it stopped, starts a hole with a titleist and finishes with a pinnacle, never adds the penalty strokes, shaves one stroke off every hole he scores over a 5, and then brags all day about his 80 that day.

im not that guy, not that you said i was.
yes, taking ground under repair drops is a slippery slope, but if you trust YOURSELF and your playing partners and do so only on occasions where it truly is appropriate to do so, in my eyes you effectively ARE playing the game the way its meant to be played (in this day and age anyway)

this is the same reason i have no issue using gps systems.
they just give me the same playing conditions that tournament players have.
to me, im not cheating myself if i use one, im cheating myself if i DONT, since my score otherwise may NOT reflect an actual round played with a professional caddie.

as for replacing the balls, its actually something i rarely do.
its by no means "unpleasant" to clean your ball (and ironically i do the EXACT same thing with the spit, finger, shirt), but it sometimes can be an unneccessary step timewise. if the ball is particularly dirty and i dont have a towel handy, thats when ill just replace with a new one, though it wouldnt bother me in the least to adhere to that rule.

really, i guess my view is that we should play EXACTLY by EVERY single rule REGARDLESS of the consequences, OR we should agree to alter only those few rules that would allow us level play.
in other words, if use of a mechanical distance device is allowed, then it stands to reason that ground under repair drops or replacing like balls on greens should ALSO be allowed, providing that the person and/or the group has honor enough to play fairly. thoughts?

jake

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mr_divots:
[qb]Man,
I played today and I shot horrible! 120! I was all over the place! I think I'm quitting the game of golf! [/qb][/QUOTE]hmmm.

if it was me posting this after last week, it may be believable

since its you, and its april 1st, im gonna call B.S. and say this is an april fools joke.

well, am i right?

Boy: did I start something this time!!!!! First of all, according to USGA rules, a laser range finder IS LEGAL FOR USE IN A ROUND OF GOLF, AS LONG AS IT IS NOT A TOURNIMENT. You can in fact use the laser during a round when the round is going to be used to figure your handicap. Whether you are developing a handicap, or maintaining one, it's legal. So, useing a range finder is not against the rules. One other thing you have to take into account, we are playing under winter conditions. That means that the fairways and greens have not been mowed or attended to in 4 or 5 months. When the grass isn't growing, as the case now, the fairways are in really bad shape. There are divot marks that are months old, and will stay that way until the ground warms up enough for the grass to grow back. We also are dealing with the 5th year of a rather bad drought. Depending on the course you are playing, you will find bare spots in the middle of the fairway big enough to land a Cessna without much trouble. So do you expect someone to hit off bare ground half of the time? That's kind of hard on your clubs, especially forged irons. Until you actually see what the course conditions are like right now, you can't really appreciate what Jake was saying about what we have to deal with. Do you want to know what a drought can do to a golf course? Two years ago, I was at a course that FORCED YOU TO TEE UP THE BALL WHENEVER THE BALL WAS IN THE FAIRWAY. Yes, that's right, tee it up from the fairway. The course was so bad, and no water to fix it, that it was the only way to save what grass was left. And the ground was so hard, you had to pound the tee into the ground with one of your club heads. Couldn't push it into the ground by hand, even with a ball on top of the tee.
I admit that it doesn't take much time to clean a ball on the green, but as long as I use the same ball to putt with as I hit off the tee, does it really matter to anyone. To tell the truth, with the poor shape the greens are in, I doubt it matters if the ball is clean or not, it won't roll straight anyway. Been 5 months since the grounds crew mowed and rolled the greens. They just last week started drilling new hole locations. Because of ground conditions, they drill 3 or 4 holes in the fall and just move the flag around from hole to hole all winter. When I said I was more interested in improving my game, that's what I meant. I have played a total of maybe 15 rounds of golf. So my main interest is getting comfortable hitting shots from grass, not hard packed dirt, or out of divots. The last round I played was the first time I "played" anywhere near as well as I "practice". That's my goal right now. Try to "play" as well as I "practice". Hell, the pros get relieve from "standing water". What's the difference between standing water and a bare spot in the middle of the fairway that is nothing more than hard packed dirt? If you so much as see water by your shoe when you address the ball, you get relieve. Why? I'd rather stand in wet grass than hit off a brick. Have you ever seen Colorado dirt? Think of a brick, that's about it. Honest truth: you swing a pick axe into the ground here when it's dry, you get sparks flying. It's that hard. I know that sound rather far fetched, but it's the God's honest truth. Come warm weather when the grass is growing again, I'll be happy to play by the rules. Until then, I'm with Jake. If we were playing for money and he didn't think it was okay to use a clean ball for putting, I'd stop and clean the ball before I putt. Until that time, I'll carry a clean ball and putt with it to save time. If that's cheating, too bad. I'm not cheaping you, only myself, and I'm not complaining.

I had no idea the conditions you guys are playing under. Even when things first open up in MN, its not that bad! Hope you guys get some water out there! Seems like it's raining everywhere else! Maybe you'll get some about when "The International" rolls into town!
I'll get a dose of winter conditions tomorrow. For some reason I thought you guys would have grass out there already...
Yes, Aprils fools!
A gal at work brought in a pen that gives an electical shock with a AA battery. Had my boss sign my expense report! :eek: He was "Shocked" by my expenses!

its been an abysmal winter for moisture. other than the blizzard of '02, its been miserable for some years now.
south of us got TONS of snow this season, but for some odd reason it didnt happen here.
vail, aspen, copper, and most other colorado ski areas had only 50-60 inches bases at maximum this year, while sandia peak in ALBUQUERQUE new mexico eclipsed A HUNDRED inch base and ski santa fe actually is still over 135!
pretty crazy.

as for the laser finders, i had no idea they were legal.
what about gps on carts?

well, the grass is growing somewhat now, so lets hope it gets better. maybe we'll have a wet spring which would really help.

jake

To clarify the rangefinder issue. The USGA rules of golf do not allow them. It is the USGA handicap manual which does allow them for posting rounds for handicap purposes. So it is on this technicality that we are able to use them. Since none of us is quite ready for the US Open, we're safe for now!

None of us are... bad grammar! Yuck!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mr_divots:
[qb]None of us are... bad grammar! Yuck![/qb][/QUOTE]it aint no problem bro. i not be paying no notice to grammar

Dry is the name of the weather again this year. According to the paper, we had gotten .93" of moisture this whole year, that's about 1/3 of normal. This being the 5th year of below normal rain fall, it's pretty bad out here. Normal(average) rainfall(rain and snow combined) is 14.50" a year. Not much when you consider that your lawn need 1" a week to be healthly. 52" a year to grow a lawn, and we get less than 15". Last year was considered a good year, we got close to 14 for the year. Problem is, as of May 15th or so, we were 4" ahead of normal. For the rest of that year and all of this year, we are 6" below normal again. What you mentioned about the International, you are no doubt correct, We will not see much rain all year until the PGA tour gets here and then it will rain for the whole time. The way the tour has been going so far, I would believe that. As much as Jake and I are looking forward to play golf this spring, we would both be happy to get some rain.
Mr_Divot: sorry is I can off a little hard on your comments with my last post, it's just not easy to play on the course right now. Played yesterday and when it started getting dark, I hit an iron from what should be grass in the middle of the fairway, and I saw sparks fly. I've had that happen hitting off one of those nylon mats before, but never off the fairway. For me, one of the worse things about the conditions is that the fairways are quite brown. A light brown, and it's real hard for me to see the white ball against the light brown fairway. Will be much nicer when everything greens up again. Hopefully, if you can come out for a visit, the rain gods will have visited first, and it will be green. Later, Don.

today was a great example of what weve been talking about with divots.
in a couple spots, they werent even DIVOTS. they were just spots in the fairway (2'x2' or more) that were completely bare. solid hard pan dirt. i didnt find any of them, but if i did, i wouldve moved it out without penalty. it WASNT marked as ground under repair, but it SHOULDVE been.

jake

Wow! I haven't had a chance to read this entire thread, but it sure would be fun to have this discussion over a few ice cold barley waters after a round.

I have always tried to play by the rules. I've even penalized myself in matches when I know I could have 'gotten away with it'.

There is a big advantage to 'playing the ball down' in casual rounds. That is simply that, if you do, you will find yourself at a big advantage when you play a tournament and MUST play the ball down.

An example: I have a friend named Ed who's preshot routine involves rolling the ball. It may not improve his lie, but he still does it. His handicap is a 4 playing this way. In our club championship a few years ago, Ed was paired with a guy who called him on it the very first time he rolled the ball. It drove Ed nuts to have to change his routine. He even started shanking his irons - shot 92. His playing partner, a legitimate 10, shot 81 just playing his regular game.

As far as some of the rules comments I've seen here so far:

Don, you incur a 2 stroke penalty every time you hit that putting ball. I'm also pretty certain that you incur a penalty for improperly declaring your game ball 'unfit for play' when you replace it with the putting ball and another when you bring the game ball back into play on the next tee. Try wetting one end of a towel when you start your round and always taking it to the green so you can clean your ball.

X-outs are not necessarily banned from competition.

5-1/4 Status of an ‘X-out’ Ball

Q. ‘X-out’ is the common name used for a golf ball which a manufacturer considers to be imperfect and has, therefore, crossed out the brand name on the golf ball. What is the status of an ‘X-out’ ball?
A. The vast majority of ‘X-out’ balls are rejected for aesthetic reasons only, i.e., paint or printing errors. In the absence of strong evidence to suggest that an ‘X-out’ ball does not conform to the Rules, it is permissible for such a ball to be used. However, in a competition where the Committee has adopted the condition that the ball the player uses must be named on the List of Conforming Golf Balls (see Note to Rule 5-1), an ‘X-out’ ball may not be used, even if the ball in question (without the X’s) does appear on the List.

As far as divots are concerned, I've rarely played a course that doesn't have a divot problem. There are degrees, though, and some course are definitely worse than others. Rangers have limited effect on the problem unless they are armed with bullwhips, cattle prods or tasers. I know how annoying it is to play from a divot, but with a little practice it isn't really a game-breaker. Say, for example, that you are 150 from the green in a divot. Don't try hitting your normal 7 or 8 iron. Take a 7 wood, play it back in your stance and take about a 3/4 swing. Try it at the range first - I bet you'll be happy with the result.

Hey! Isn't this game supposed to be fun?

JW

JW, I didn't say I'm not willing to play out of a divot, I just mentioned that I believe the USGA should change the rules on this issue to make the game more fair and level for the players on tour. The way it is now, the guys that hit the tee shot an average distance are the ones with the greatest chance to end up in a divot and get screwed. The long hitters go past the vast majority of the divots, and get an extra advantage. It was just my opinion and not a statement of war against the USGA or playing by the rules. And remind me never to mention trying to save a little time by putting with a clean ball. Cleaning the ball isn't a big deal, but it does take a little time, and if we are playing "ready golf", which is the routine around here when the courses are busy, it does save a little time if I can putt with a clean ball and get out of the way so the others in the foursome can putt out. Think of it the same way your playing partner picks up your ball when it's a foot from the cup and tells you it's good. He's giving you the putt. That's against the rules too. but it happens all the time. Why, because he knows you can make a 1 foot putt and it's a way to save time. Personelly, I don't like it and I don't appreciate it when someone rolls my ball back to me. I'd rather sink the putt and get that much more comfortable making those short putts for the time it may really count. I was a guy on tour yesterday three putt from 2 feet, so it can happen if you get careless. Or the pressure is on. I had my ball rolled back to me three time after some nice chips that rolled up close. I didn't complain, but I would rather have putted out. In match play it's different, I'll take the putt if you want to give it to me, but in stroke play, I'd rather finish the hole. But that's just me. On a slightly different subject, I have a question for you guys. Friday my ball came to rest under some low hanging branches just off the green. I had to chip it to the cup. But I had to bend over to get under the branches and reach my ball. Is it legal to touch the branches with my back when I address the ball? If I stand up a little and cause the branches to bend upward, is that against the rules? I know I can't break any branches or knock leaves off, but can I bend the branches with my back when I address the ball? Just wondering.

Saw a replay of Fred Funk's final putt to win the tourniment, and his reaction. It sure was nice to see some emotion for once. He slammed his hat down on the green and celebrated like a real person. I think he may have done the "FUNKY CHICKEN". He may look like Barney Rubble, but you can't help but like the guy. Way to go FUNKY.

Don,

It doesn't sound like you violated 13-2. Here's an excerpt that seems to cover your situation:

Examples of actions which do constitute fairly taking a stance are:
• backing into a branch or young sapling if that is the only way to take a stance for the selected stroke, even if this causes the branch to move out of the way or the sapling to bend or break.
• bending a branch of a tree with the hands in order to get under the tree to play a ball.
Examples of actions which do not constitute fairly taking a stance are:
• deliberately moving, bending or breaking branches with the hands, a leg or the body to get them out of the way of the backswing or stroke.
• standing on a branch to prevent it from interfering with the backswing or stroke.
• hooking one branch on another or braiding two weeds for the same purpose.
• bending with a hand a branch obscuring the ball after the stance has been taken.
• bending an interfering branch with the hands, a leg or the body in taking a stance when the stance could have been taken without bending the branch. (Revised)

I think the key is that you moved the branches in the act of 'fairly' taking your stance. If you take your stance, then find that some branches impede your backswing and you then stuff the branches behind your back then you would be in violation. Loss of hole in match play; 40 lashes in medal play.

JW

jw,

i think its important to note that the whole replacing a ball on the putting surface has NOTHING to do with gaining advantage and is ONLY done to save a little bit of time.
in other words, if don and i were in a tournament, adhering to that rule would IN NO WAY change our scores or the way we play. remember, we're replacing with the exact same kind of ball. also remember that if the initial ball is scuffed or damaged in any way, i will NOT replace it.
again, i dont do this often anyway, but if im being pushed by the group behind me and can save a few precious seconds, i will. why? because i DONT want to ever feel rushed while addressing the ball. im not old style sergio garcia slow, but i do have a fairly lengthy preshot routine, and my game goes to hell in a bucket when i try to hurry.

the rules i want to be careful not to break are the ones that give me a scoring advantage.
the ONLY exception to that is the ground under repair.
it sounds like agreement will not be reached here, but like i said earlier, my objective is to get a score that would reflect what i would be able to do IN a tournament with a tournament ready caddie.
in those conditions, im VERY confident that a 5 x 3 foot section of fairway (i use that size specifically because i saw it yesterday) that was bare ground would be marked accordingly.

jake

ps- don made a GREAT point about divots and the long hitter. ive gone back and forth on this issue and pretty much sided with the view that you SHOULD have to hit out of them in tournament play (because there's too much gray area as to what defines a divot), but after dons point im second guessing it again, simply because i think the usga needs to do whatever they can to NOT give long hitters any more advantages. anyway, just my .02.

also, i think its important to note that when its all said and done, this is a sport that we play for enjoyment (though i think most of us here feel ALOT more strongly about it!!!).

playing with the guy who shaves two strokes a hole and who's best club is the foot wedge isnt alot of fun, but likewise, playing with a rules nazi on a sunday round with no money involved often isnt either.

bottom line is that i do play by the rules, but i want an ACCURATE AND FAIR score because for me, i want to know where i stand relative to the BEST, and the best have some advantages that i do not.

another of those advantages is ball spotters.
this is ANOTHER rule that i have VERY VERY rarely broken (put it this way, i havent yet this YEAR broken it, but i may at some point if i deem it the correct thing to do).

lets say you hit a drive. well played. no water, no super thick rough, bunkers, etc., but you are having a hard time finding it and your partners are across the fairway.
you can play precisely by the rules and take your lost ball penalty, or you can give yourself the worst lie possible in the area you know your ball is in, and play a shot free of penalty.

is it "cheating"?
its against the rules, but then again, we dont have ball spotters, and you can bet your life that if we did, that ball would be found.
further, if we didnt have nazi ranger behind us because a twosome is on top of our foursome, we'd spend the time to find it ourselves.

again, this is something i have rarely done and honestly dont remember the last time i did, but ive done it, and ive allowed others in my group to do it even when we WERE playing for money.

again, if you trust YOURSELF and those you play with, you DONT worry about cheating yourself.
if i did that every round, im cheating myself. in fact, i knew a guy who DID do that consistently. he cheated scores, used a foot wedge, didnt take hazard penalties, carried illegal clubs, and once or twice a round he'd give himself a free drop because he "shouldve been able to find that one but doesnt want to slow the group down." what a crock!!
realy nice guy, real frustrating to play with. havent a CLUE what his real scores wouldve been.

again, im not that guy.
when i play on sunday or wednesday with don, im NOT in a tournament. im playing for MYSELF, and for some friendly competition with don (that is if i can get things square!!)
for MYSELF, i choose to bend or break a RARE rule, because i feel that im "cheating" myself if i DONT.
why?

because i have dreams and goals when it comes to golf, and i want to measure MYSELF against the best. to do that, when it DOESNT affect others, i reserve the right to do what i need to to give myself playing conditions that most accurately reflect those that i'd see in competition. yes, that WOULD include hitting out of a standard divot, but it would NOT include hitting out of a large bare spot in the middle of a fairway.

i understand and appreciate your views and would be more than happy to play accordingly if we played a competitive round together, but i wanted to at least explain WHY i do what i do.

jake

Guys,

I play ready golf as well - most of the people I play with do as well. I was just trying to clarify what the rule on changing balls is and to suggest that, rather than replacing the ball, another option would be to take a damp towel to the green. It adds no time and since your going to clean the ball anyway....

Jake - I don't follow this statement:

'also remember that if the initial ball is scuffed or damaged in any way, i will NOT replace it.'

That's when the rules DO allow you to replace it.

As for the divot rule being changed to level the playing field, I truly don't see how anything can be more level than playing the ball as it lies. Trying to determine the point at which a divot has healed to the extent that it is no longer a divot seems a little crazy to me.

JW

Thanks for the rules update JW. It looks like I was okay then Friday. After I stood up a little under the branches, there were some other branches in the way of my backstroke, but I just lived with it and chipped out. Managed to hit the flag stick on that shot and tapped in to minimize the damage. I didnt' think it should be against the rules to have my back against the branches, but I didn't think it would hurt to ask some of you that have been playing longer than I. Played 10 over for the day Friday, if I can keep that up I should have the handicap down to a single digit by the end of summer. That's the goal for now. Thanks again for the info. Don.

Wow. I don't think I've ever been called a rules nazi before. That hurt.

At one time or another, all of us have hit a ball in what we thought was a safe spot then couldn't find it. It may plug, roll under a leaf or, in the case of one course I played years ago, be stolen by a dog. Everybody saw the shot and had a good idea where it went so, and I've never seen an argument on this, drop one in an agreed spot - no penalty. Heck, we even had a local 'leaf rule' in PA just for that sort of thing.

As for bare spots or chewed up muddy areas as opposed to divots, they should definitely be GUR. The problem is that most courses don't take the time to mark them. The players just use some common sense for regular play.

I don't mean to offend. I'm not really a rules nazi, but I do feel that the rules do (mostly) make the game more satisfying. I know this sounds extreme, but barring things like unmarked GUR I'd rather shoot an 80 playing the ball down and putting out than a 72 rolling the ball and using gimmes. I'm pretty sure I feel that way because in the 40 years I've played this game I've done it both ways.

JW

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jjw901:
[qb]

Jake - I don't follow this statement:

'also remember that if the initial ball is scuffed or damaged in any way, i will NOT replace it.'

That's when the rules DO allow you to replace it.
JW[/qb][/QUOTE]i think i wasnt clear.
you have to finish the hole with the same ball you started with, correct?
thats why when don or i replace a ball on the green its techincally illegal despite it not being an advantage.

so, i blade my approach, scuff the ball, and walk up to the green.
now, i have a scuffed ball that wont putt as well as a fresh one.
THATS the case where i will mark and clean the existing ball 100% of the time, since replacing it with a like ball WOULD give me a competitive advantage. make sense?

or am i missing something?
the rules cant possibly NOT allow you to replace a good ball on the green, but ALLOW you to replace a scuffed ball, which is scuffed because the player bladed his previous shot...can they?

jake

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jjw901:
[qb]Wow. I don't think I've ever been called a rules nazi before. That hurt.

At one time or another, all of us have hit a ball in what we thought was a safe spot then couldn't find it. It may plug, roll under a leaf or, in the case of one course I played years ago, be stolen by a dog. Everybody saw the shot and had a good idea where it went so, and I've never seen an argument on this, drop one in an agreed spot - no penalty. Heck, we even had a local 'leaf rule' in PA just for that sort of thing.

As for bare spots or chewed up muddy areas as opposed to divots, they should definitely be GUR. The problem is that most courses don't take the time to mark them. The players just use some common sense for regular play.

I don't mean to offend. I'm not really a rules nazi, but I do feel that the rules do (mostly) make the game more satisfying. I know this sounds extreme, but barring things like unmarked GUR I'd rather shoot an 80 playing the ball down and putting out than a 72 rolling the ball and using gimmes. I'm pretty sure I feel that way because in the 40 years I've played this game I've done it both ways.

JW[/qb][/QUOTE]whoa now!!

i wasnt calling YOU a rules nazi. i hope you know that. gosh, i feel bad now.

as for the rest, it sounds like we agree almost completely.
i thought you'd surely disagree with the free drop scenario i mentioned.
again, as long as you play with integrity, you will only do those things when appropriate.
as for the dog taking the ball, thats classic. now THERES something i havent seen before!

last one is the divots. really, i should be more specific, because 9 out of 10 times im not referring to a conventional "divot" as much as i am referring to a spot that for whatever reason is truly destroyed but not marked, which i see now that we both agree should be a drop.

jake

Jake,

It's clear as mud, I know, but here's the gist of what Rule 5-3 says. My fault to have missed the word 'scuffed' in your post.

A ball has to be visibly cut or out of round to be replaced. Scuffs and cracks do not qualify. At no time can a perfectly good ball be replaced -remember, we're talking rule here, not ready golf.

Also, to be technical, your playing partner has to agree to the replacement. Furthermore, the replaced ball may not be used at any time during the rest of that round. No, that doesn't mean that if you are down to that ball you are shit out of luck. Believe it or not, you may borrow a ball from another player during the round. I'd have to look that one up, but I'm sure of it.

Damn! Maybe I am turning into a rules nazi! Surely there must be a support group to help me!

JW

Jw, apparently I'm in the Rules Reicht as well!

Guys, invest $3.95 and buy a rule book. It's not like I carry the thing with me out on the course and follow people around with it! :rolleyes:
Knowing at least the basics is a good start. If you read it, you don't need to commit it to memory, but it will give you a general idea of right & wrong on the course, and you'll have something to back it up. It only takes about an hour to read it. With all the questions that are coming up it sounds like it might not be a bad idea! There's a definite stigma about people that know and play by the rules as being "dorks" or something. You can still choose to play "local" rules within your group or whatever, but if you get into a situation where someone is trying to call you on a rules infraction, at least you'll be in the know!

well, i guess im one of the dorks.

ive read the rule book cover to cover....a few times.
i have a copy..

..and i DO carry it in my bag.

...but that doesnt change my views on any of the things previously discussed.

divots, weigh in on this one please.
even jjw agreed to bend the rules here.
how about the lost ball rule, when your tee shot was CLEARLY in play, and you just have an issue finding it in time to play on.
do you take a penalty when that happens?

if so, i admire your rule naziism (j/k), but i DO NOT think that is the way you should play, except in a tournament. your score will not be an accurate reflection of your play. what say you pal?

jake

Yeah, common sense is needed too if it isn't a competitive round. We don't have the benefit of ball spotters and galleries. I am not a complete "By the rules" player. The divots issue just didn't sit well with me and the replacing of the ball with a clean one when it doesn't speed play for all practical purposes, especially when playing in a foursome! I play the ball down because I believe that makes us better players. Extraneous circumstances are sure to pop up and exceptions made. I just thought those were two easy rules to follow. Just don't injure ourselves in crater-like divots...

thats pretty much my view too, except to note that in colorado recently there are alot more crater like divots and/or bare patches of turf as hard as pavement than usual, which is probably why it came up in the first place.

We have a new local rule that has really helped speed play. My home course is 6984 from the idiot tees and 6484 from the championship tees. Not brutal by todays standards, but very tight and fairly hilly for this area.

I called the tips the 'idiot tees' because of all the idiots who shouldn't be playing them. Those clowns can easily stretch things to a 5 1/2 hour round. But hey, they want to get their money's worth.

Anyway, a lot of our treelines are OB. The idiots don't think to hit a provisional, but also don't hesitate going back to the tee to rehit. So to help remedy this a new local rule has been instituted to play the OB treelines as lateral hazards. It's been a big help.

Also on the table is a proposal to have the rangers enforce something I've only heard of once. That is to compel slower groups playing the idiot or championship tees to move up a set if they can't keep pace. If any of y'all have seen that one work I'd like to hear about it.

JW

Playing from the back tees and can't keep up or find the fairways? Sounds like an EGO problem to me. Has to be male golfers, women aren't that stupid. I seem to remember this topic before. If you can't brake 80, you have no business hitting from the back tees. Some of the guys you have by you, are playing from the back tees and can't brake 80 on the front nine I bet. And you're right, they are idiots. Can you just shot them, or is that illegal in your state? Does your course have a maximum time limit in effect? I played one course where if a group didnt'keep up, they were forced to skip a hole and catch up that way. Pissed them off, but it did clear up the roadblock.

I have noticed some courses putting up tee box reccomendations based on handicap level in my area. The "idiot tees" are usually 0-7 handicap. I played a round last year at a links style course. Fescue everywhere, wind was strong. These "proud" 50-something traditionalists insisted on playing the idiot tees. These are the guys with blades they have no business playing, the smallest titanium drivers they could find. I think it was a 5 1/2 hour round. They must have gone through at least 8-10 lost balls. Never occurred to them to switch tees. I think I salvaged a halfway decent round, but it was miserable. Fortunately there are plenty of "idiots" on that course, so no one was hitting into us.

its amazing to me that so many people insist on playing from the tips.
at most courses, the BACK tees ARENT the tips anyway, which i make sure to mention to these guys.
the tips out here are called the championship tees, and the next one in the back tees.
for me, it depends on the course.
if there's only three tee boxes, ill play the middle if its long, and the back tee if its short.
if there's four tee boxes, ill play one from the tips.
if there's five, ill play one from the tips if its shorter, and the middle if its longer.

everyone should know their own game and play accordingly.
since all courses have ratings from all tee's, its not like your playing a different course from closer, or "cheating yourself" out of an accurate score. your round will play easier, and the course rating will take that into account.

everytime i get in a group that says "we're going to play from the tips," i say "go ahead, im not yet a 7 handicap or less."

a few courses out here have posted the tee box recommendations as well, and they too have posted 7 or less as the tips, which makes sense. thats a consistent 70's golfer. im not....yet

jake

I haven't seen any tee/handicap recommendations at the courses around here yet. It's definitely something I'll push for. Funny thing, though. When I set up the Men's Association this winter I had the tee boxes set up as:

Gold <8
Green 8 - 13
White >13

Just seemed like common sense to me.

JW