Here's a question for those you that can work the ball right or left on command. Which is easier to work the ball with, irons or wood? And secondly, which irons are hardest to work the ball with, long irons or short irons? I just started working the ball with my woods(doing pretty well) and wanted to know about the irons, easier or harder. Thanks for your help on this subject, I appreciate it.

BEATS ME DON.. HEHE....

Don,
I've always felt that a 3-wood was an ideal club to try and manuever the ball with. From a standpoint of physics (which is what the game is all about), short irons simply have too much loft to impart the kind of sidespin necessary to curve the ball. The driver is too long a club to really be able to control the clubface with. (Although it is the club that can impart the most sidespin).

But, really, working the ball is all confidence and practice. Nobody can master working the ball in either direction unless they are extremely comfortable and confident with their swing. Pracitice is vital. Mental imagery is also very important when it comes to creating shots. "Great" players can imagine the shot, then simply hit it without even thinking about mechanics, even though, subconsciously, the've altered their swing or setup somewhat to acheive the result.

Hope some of those thoughts help.
Andrew Penner

Thanks Andy; Have decided to build a set of Snake Eyes 600 series irons and find out if I can work the ball with them. I demoed the Snake Eyes compared with a Mizuno MP30 six iron, and they look and feel pretty much the same. Got about the same results on the simulator in the store. I have read nothing but good reviews on the MP30's, so I decided to compare them to the Snake Eyes 600 series irons. I hope I have as much luck with them, as I have read good reviews on the MP30's. Will let you know the results of the test on the driving range when I get them built. Your statements on working the ball makes sense. The more loft on the club, the more back spin, and the less the side spin will effect the ball flight. Very good point. So I'll start trying to work the ball with my longer irons and WORK my way down to the shorter irons and see how it goes. I'm playing a set of Callaway X-16 clones at this time, so I don't know how much I will be able to work the ball with a set of irons that are as forgiving as these and hit the ball quite high. Will have to try and see I guess. Thanks again for your reply. Don

Hi Don,
I played the X-16 irons for a year and found them to be very difficult to "work." Other pros I know have said the same thing. They are just too forgiving and, like you said, launch the ball too high. Good luck with the testing. Let me know the results.
Andrew

Tried working the ball with my 23 degree 7 wood and had pretty good luck, could work it maybe 30-40 yards left to right, carry distance is at 200 yards. Tried working my X-16 clones and didn't have much luck at all. Nice to know it's not just me having trouble working the ball with the X-16's, thanks for that information.

Don,
Did you shoot the video we were discussing? If so let me know and I'll get you an address.
Oh! I think the best way to work a ball with a short iron is to have a 25 mph wind blowing from left to right. LOL
Bill

Hi Bill; Will shoot video this weekend when the wife is available to run the recorder and get it to you as soon as I have an address to ship it to. I'm still working on the foot tip and I saw some success yesterday at the range. Still not good but getting better at least. I have a question for you. How do you get the wind God to blow in the correct direction on that dogleg par four? Do you have his or her e-mail address? I could use his/her help too.

Don,

Just touching on what andpenner said earlier, yes, it does help to use your longer clubs to work the ball because of the following:

The long irons have a flatter lie angle, i.e. you swing the club more around your body when you hit it. Imagine a club with a shaft of 100 feet, the angle of the club head would be almost completely flat and to swing it (assuming you could) you would have to swing it right around your body. The point (and there is a point) is that the club face will only be square to the target line for a fraction of a second, it will be very open just before impact and very closed just after impact (due to the almost circular swing). Because of this and us being human, the chances of getting that club head perfectly back to square each time with only a moment of "squareness" existing are very slim. This is the reason why we tend to either hook or slice a long iron or driver. The time the club face is square to the target is very limited.

In contrast, short irons have shorter shafts (hence their name) and as a consequence when you swing them, the club head almost goes straight back and straight forward with the face being square for a relatively long time. This is the reason that putters have even shorter shafts so that you can almost hang them straight down. The straighter down the club hangs, the easier it is to keep the face square. Belly putters etc are designed to be like that and hang straight down you all you have to do is swing them back and forth with the club face remaining square almost the whole time.

As a consequence of this, if you want to manipulate the club head to "work" the ball, it is easier to do when physics (the long shaft/more circular swing) is on your side. Of course due to the difficulty of doing it, you have to be really at peace with your swing and play a lot so your feel is tip top.

With shorter irons it is more difficult to manipulate the club head as physics (the shorter shaft/more upright swing) is against you and trying its best to keep the club head square. What can happen if you try and work a short iron is that you have to manipulate the club head so much to override the natural tendency to remain square that you end up moving the shank into line with the ball and ... yes, the dreaded shank!

There (phew) is the long and short of it.

I hope this helped.

Bartman

Bartman,
Nicely done. I like the imagery there. Some interesting points that make perfect sense. 100-ft long club. Got to get me one of those.
Andrew

Andrew, yes, I agree, just imagine the arch on that puppy!

Hi Don,

My first question back to you is "why do you feel a need to 'work' the ball?" Do you mind if I ask what your handicap/average score is? In my experience teaching I have never seen a bad player who could hit the ball straight. And I have seen a great many bad players who 'tried' to work the ball. In point of fact very few of the greatest players in the world even try to work the ball. Most develop a sound repeating swing - that relative to the individual may be straight, a slight fade, or a slight draw. Now often the answer back to this is "Ya, but what if I am in the right trees and need to hit a cut to get to the green??" Well guess what, most players with a sound (straight) swing don't have that problem. And on the occasion that they are in the trees, they know a good punch out and a laser accurate approach shot will save the day.

Finally, I must comment (with all due respect to junior member Bartman) that long irons don't work the ball more because of a flatter lie angle. The lie angle is flatter so that the golfer can set up to the ball the same as he would with a shorter iron. Two things make it appear a longer club works the ball more: ONE The ramifications of an error ("working the ball" is basically an "intentional error") are greater with a long iron. The mistake is being made with greater clubhead speed and therefore the same swing that produces a slight cut with a 9-iron would translate out to a significant cut with a 3-iron. The clubhead speed is greater, and therefore the ball is going to travel a greater distance on the arc (slice or hook) the mistake created, making the results appear to be more profound. TWO: Longer irons have less loft, which means less backspin. When sidespin dominates backspin, the ball will not fly as straight.

It is extremely important to emphasize that one does not "swing around" their body more because they are swinging a long iron, and to do so would be to make an already difficult club to hit, even more so.

I hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Clive Scarff

Hi,
I agree with Clive about "working the ball." Most of the problems I incur on the course are from trying to do something other than send the ball on it's natural way. However, assuming golf is a game of fun, what is more fun than learning to hit different shots and cause severe brain pain once in awhile? The trick is to not use all this great knowledge and skill of "working the ball" unless it is absolutely necessary, which should be very seldom.
BTW: It is much better to practice hitting the ball correctly, than to spend a lot of time practicing draw, fade, high or low shots.
Bill

Hi Clive; I have only played 3 rounds of golf on a par 72 course, shot 106.103,and a 89. When I started playing golf two years ago I decided to practice on the range until I felt I could hit the ball in the direction of the hole the vast majority of the time before I played on a course and then start on the local per three course. This plan caused me to hit my irons more than my woods,( not much need for woods on a par three), and the result is that I hit my irons much better than my woods, especially my driver. So to answer you question, I play mostly the par 3 course where I average 30 for 9 holes. The reason I want to work the ball is because there are times on a par 4 or 5 that it helps to be able to curve the ball around the corner of a dogleg fairway. Plus if you hit the ball to a fairway that slopes to the right, it helps to work the ball from right to left so the ball doesn't roll off the right side of the short grass and into the rough. It's also helpful to be able to work the ball left to right if the pin is in the back right corner of the green and with a bunker guarding the right side of the green near the front. The only way to get the ball back there is to either hit a high shot that will land and stick, or hit a left to right shot that lands short of the pin and rolls to the flag. There are also times that a tree is in the direct line between you and the green and you have to work the ball around the tree. And when you have a cross wind, you might want to hit a fade into the wind to help get the ball to stop on the green better. Or hit a draw and let the wind add a few yards to your shot. Plus, as Bill H. stated, it's fun to learn to control the flight of the ball. If you can't control the ball, you can't hit good shots. Hitting a draw on command will gain you a few more yards of distance with more roll. Hitting a fade will gain you a few yards of carry distance, which may be needed to carry a lake or other hazard. And after watching the PGA tour on tv the past two years, I would have to disagree with you on whether good players work the ball or not. Most every player on tour can and does work the ball during every round they play each week. In fact, I would say a lot of them work the ball a lot more than is needed on some of the holes they play, but they do in deed, work the ball all the time. I do agree with you that there is nothing wrong with being able to hit a nice straight shot when it's called for. More often than not, I am quite happy to hit a ball that flys straight and high into the green. And it's also true that most players would be better served with a set of irons that hit nothing but straight shots. My LX2 irons do just that and I love the way they are working for me, other than when I want to work the ball. If all fairways were straight and all fairways were level and all pins were in the middle of the green, I might never need to hit a fade or draw, but we don't play golf under those conditions all the time. And that's a good thing, or the game would get boring real fast. So I guess it's fair to say I want to learn to work the ball for when it will come in handy and so I have more control over the ball and my game, plus it's fun.

Hi Guys,
A few more thoughts about "working the ball." Don, I like the way you think. Clearly, the pinnacle of acheivement in this game lies in mastering the ball. Right, left, straight, high, low, whatever the situation warrants. When one can control flight, trajectory, spin, he's got it made from a shotmaking perspective. (But not necessarily from a scoring perspective - enter short game). But, sadly, the game is just too tough for most people to reach that summit. Really, we should all try for things that are doable. Way less frustrating. In my opinion, the most compelling argument you made was your last one. "It's fun." Obviously, you enjoy the challenge of hittings shots, "working the ball." I say, if that what melts your butter, more power to you. The guy who has the most fun usually has the last laugh.
Confuscious

I have to agree with Andrew (above) and after reading your response, Don, did want to add that ANYTHING that contributes to the game being fun for you the individual IS what it is all about. I will add a couple more comments though (with a wink : What you see on TV can be misleading; don't assume that when the announcer says "...and Weir is going to try to hit a little draw in here" that that means Weir is working the ball - Weir's natural shot IS a draw. He is not necessarily "working" the ball. It is important to find YOUR natural shot and work with it.

One of John Daly's drawbacks, as he will attest to, was that his misses were to both sides of the golf course, so he made it his mission to eliminate the left side of the course all together. Note his improved play of late. A classic is Bruce Lietzke, who made a (long and successful) career of hitting a little fade.

And while yes, all golf courses (especially the ones I grew up on in Australia!) possess doglegs, and tucked pins, that is where course management comes in. Par 5, dogleg right, with a pin tucked back left? The straight shooter will hit his drive straight to the left corner of the dogleg, hit his second straight shot short right of the green, thus opening up access to the pin (there is a term for this but it is not suitable for juniors!).

So in closing... yes working the ball is fun, but so too is taking a turn at 100 mph in an Indy style sportscar. But you won't see me doing the latter! But I don't mind making birdies. That kind of fun is underrated.

Cheers,

Clive.

With respect to Clive, I beg to differ. Yes, club head speed will compound an error but I don't quite understand how hitting a perfect draw when required can be considered an error. On the other point, the flatter lie angle will cause your swing plane to be more flat i.e. more "around" your body. Just try putting a shaft into the ground so it it parallel to your wedge shaft at address and then do the same with another shaft with your 3 iron at address and you will notice that plane is much flatter. Now imagine that the shaft in the ground was the angle of a pane of glass so that when you swung the club it would brush against it on the way back and the way through. The pane of glass is much flatter with a 3 iron than with a wedge.

Now, we know that with a putter which has a short shaft which hangs almost straight down (it's pane of glass would be almost straight up) is the easiest club to keep square because you swing it straight back and straight forward (like a pendulum of a clock). It stands to reason that the flatter your swing, the less the time is that the club head is square. The less time the club head is square, the less likely you are going to hit it straight! Another example is if you were going to roll a ball at a target with your hand, you would roll it like a ten pin bowler would (why? because your hand is square the whole time). You would hardly roll it like a "scarecrow" would as this means your hand is square only for a moment and if you get it wrong, you will roll it left or right. Another example is the hammer throw in athletics. One of the big problems is trying to get the hammer to go straight and not sideways into the net! Why? Again, because the swing is around your body. Look at croquet, you don't see them trying the 3 iron stance do you? No, they swing it straight back and through between their legs...why? Because it keeps the face square for longer.

To Clive and Andy; You both seem to think that golf is too hard for most people to learn well enough to play hard shots. While it may be too hard for some, you can't make the mistake of telling someone that wants to learn to hit every possible shot one can think of, that it, "BEING FUN" is the best reason to try it!!!! That sounds like a defeatist additude, that just leads to BEING AVERAGE. I can't speak for everyone, but I for one, will not settle for being AVERAGE. For me, the FUN reason to work the ball, is the last reason I want to learn to work the ball, not the best reason to learn. And Clive, while you are correct in stating that a straight hitter can play to the corner of the dogleg and hit from there, it is also true that if he could have worked the ball around the corner of that dogleg, he could have hit a shorter and easier to control club with his second shot, making a third shot to reach the green either a shorter, easier shot or a putt for eagle. I read your piece on hitting less greens and score better, and it makes sense if you want to SCORE. But it makes no sense at all if the player is trying to learn to hit new shots that may be over his head at the moment, and he is more concerned with improving his game than with a SCORE. Playing it safe is not for everyone. If you snow ski, you have no doubt heard it stated that one must SKI UNDER CONTROL AT ALL TIMES. That's a nice idea if you don't want to improve your skill level and remain a novice the rest of your life. When I was skiing a lot, I would always ski at the very upper edge of my skill level and "push the envelope" as it is called. I would ski right to the edge of control and learn to control the speed and icey conditions until I improved my skill or I crashed. If I crashed, I tried again and again until I learned to handle the speed and slope of the hill until I didn't crash at that level and then I tried to learn some more. It's the same with golf, you have to learn the basics and then move on to the next level. I want to learn to work the ball and move on to a higher level. And I for one will not be happy with my game until I can shoot birdie on all 18 holes on a regular basis. Shoot a 54 for 18 holes, and not just once. And that means I most likely will never be happy with the level of my game, and that's fine with me. I may not make it, but I do want to be the best old man to play the game. Some magazine article writers have said the short game of most players is poor because praticing is boring. Well, I don't think practicing the short game or bunker play is boring at all. It's a challenge and one I plan to master. To me, the only thing boring is playing a game and never trying to get better. When I shot a 106 for my first round, I had a lot of people tell me that was a great first round. David Leadbetter told me the same thing,"Great first round". Well, I felt it was horrible at the time and I still do. Trying to get better, trying new things, is what made me a state champion pistol shooter more than a few times, and I want to do the same thing with my golf game. I want to win the senior state championship, and after that, I will try for the regular state championship. May not get there, but I can try. And I will not settle for AVERAGE.

Jeez, this is a long thread. Sorry I haven't been here for it, but I'll toss in my two cents anyway.

I've only scanned the thread so far, but I think I'm inclined to agree somewhat with Clive in that working the ball is over-rated. My dominant ball flight is a fade with anything longer than an 8-iron and a slight draw with anything shorter. I don't know why I have that difference and I don't care. I'm comfortable with it and it has served me well for 40 years. If I have to hit a low, running, hooked 4-iron around some trees I can do it, but I'd much rather try not to allow myself to get in that position. And yes, if that means taking 3 to reach a long dogleg left par 4 then so be it. By playing my normal shots I'm 90% certain to make no worse than bogey and, since I'm not scratch, I'm likely to have a few of those, right?

Maybe I think this way because I'm getting old. I watch old 'Shell's Wonderful World of Golf' matches on TGC and you see guys like Barber, Boros, January, Snead, et al, actually hitting bump 'n runs and not automatically taking out the driver on the tee. For me, that's a lot more interesting that watching today's crop of bombers.

Dammit, I'm rambling again...sorry.

JW

Clive,

FYI, I don't think 'junior' on this site has anything to do with age. My guess is that it refers either to the length of time they've been a member or, possibly, the number of posts - just a guess.

Welcome.

JW

Don,

Have you gotten the Snake Eyes 600s yet?

I agree with you that trying different shots during a round can be a lot of fun. Back in the days of yesteryear we actually made a game of it. The guys in the group each had 3 times a side that they could demand one of the others hit a particular shot or use a certain club. It can be really hard hitting a 75 yard driver out of the rough and getting it to stop on the green. Failure to reasonably execute the shot cost the shooter a stroke penalty, while a successful shot cost the same to the caller.

It can also improve your came a`la Seve B's creativity. I'm convinced, though, that one of the quickest roads to game improvement is playing with and against better players. You can learn a lot by watching a really good player (I'm not taling about the tour pros) manage his or her way around the course.

Later.

JW

JW: Yes, I got the heads and shafts but I haven't had a chance to build the set as of yet. I ordered a set of LX2 heads and graphite shafts for my wife, and I wanted to build her set first. Just finished butt trimming the shafts this morning and will install the grips after work this evening. Will be on my own this Saturday, so I will most likely work on my set then. Will let you know how they WORK. I guess I really started something with this topic, and it's always good to hear a different point of view on something. It makes the brain function and not go to waste. Just wait for my next new post, it will cause even more discussion. Type at you guys later, I have to go hit a few balls down range while the weather is nice and today's the last chance for awhile.

In response to Bartman:

Hi Bartman, and thanks for your thoughts. I have addressed them below…

Bartman: With respect to Clive, I beg to differ. Yes, club head speed will compound an error but I don't quite understand how hitting a perfect draw when required can be considered an error. On the other point, the flatter lie angle will cause your swing plane to be more flat i.e. more "around" your body. Just try putting a shaft into the ground so it it parallel to your wedge shaft at address and then do the same with another shaft with your 3 iron at address and you will notice that plane is much flatter. Now imagine that the shaft in the ground was the angle of a pane of glass so that when you swung the club it would brush against it on the way back and the way through. The pane of glass is much flatter with a 3 iron than with a wedge.

Clive: You are absolutely right, the flatter the lie angle the flatter the swing plane. But this has nothing to do with swinging the club around your body. Swinging “around your body” implies (and correct me if this is not what you meant) that the swing is changing to accommodate the flatter lie angle. The actual lie angle of the club, coupled with the fact that you are literally further from the ball, will produce a flatter swing plane, but the club is to be swung in an identical fashion as for all other clubs. In theory, if we were to swing around our body more with longer clubs, where would we be swinging that 100 foot long club? Not around our ankles. We would (have to) swing it exactly the same way we swing a nine iron. If we were to try to swing it around our body, the club would never get back to the ball.

Bartman: Now, we know that with a putter which has a short shaft which hangs almost straight down (it's pane of glass would be almost straight up) is the easiest club to keep square because you swing it straight back and straight forward (like a pendulum of a clock).

Clive: Strictly speaking, the putter does not swing straight back and straight through, so your example may be misleading. The best putters in the world all agree, along with Dave Pelz, that even the putting stroke works from inside to inside. But, as you noted, not to the same degree as other clubs because, yes, the shaft comes out of the head at a much steeper angle.

Bartman: It stands to reason that the flatter your swing, the less the time is that the club head is square. The less time the club head is square, the less likely you are going to hit it straight!

Clive: Another misnomer. In any golf swing the clubhead is square for an extremely minute moment in time. Regardless of its length. The shorter clubs we simply get away with an open or shut clubface more because of the lack of clubhead speed, and the abundance of backspin vs sidespin thanks to loft (not length). Do not be tricked into thinking that a square clubface is the soul cause of a straight shot. This is hard to demonstrate in a forum - I do discuss this in my CD Rom - but a clubhead that is rotating (pronating) while swinging on an inside to out path can actually produce a desired straight (to be more literal, drawing) shot without the clubface actually being perfectly square at impact.

Bartman: Another example is if you were going to roll a ball at a target with your hand, you would roll it like a ten pin bowler would (why? because your hand is square the whole time).

Clive: Ahhh, but in ten pin bowling there is a huge difference – we are not side-on to our target, we are facing it. And the arm in bowling (which in theory would be the club in golf) has no lie angle whatsoever. And we do not bowl with 14 different length arms. It is so so important – and I say this with complete respect for you - when debating golf swings that you are comparing oranges with oranges, not apples. The physics of a bowling action is integrally different than of a golf swing.

Bartman: You would hardly roll it like a "scarecrow" would as this means your hand is square only for a moment and if you get it wrong, you will roll it left or right. Another example is the hammer throw in athletics. One of the big problems is trying to get the hammer to go straight and not sideways into the net! Why? Again, because the swing is around your body.

Clive: In hammer throw you may swing around your body – in golf you do not. You swing up and down, not around. Swinging “around” is why the predominant mistake in golf is a push, slice, or shank to the right.

Bartman: Look at croquet, you don't see them trying the 3 iron stance do you? No, they swing it straight back and through between their legs...why? Because it keeps the face square for longer.

Clive: Golf is not croquet. In golf you cannot assume the croquet stance (they tried with putting and they banned it) and the shaft of a croquet mallet is vertical. There is no “angle” whatsoever. But perhaps the biggest difference, (what makes golf so unique, and so difficult), in croquet they are not trying to get the ball airborne. Huge difference. In croquet the ball is struck front on, and laterally. In golf the ball is struck side-on, and with a descending blow.

Bartman, I hope none of this offends you, as I am not being argumentative. I appreciate your thoughts and sensibilities. I have been playing this game for over 30 years, and teaching it professionally for ten, and believe me it took me many many years to weed out what was pertinent in the golf swing, and what was not; what was an old golf myth, and what was scientific truth. There are so many variables in golf, in angles, planes, shapes, curves, arcs, it makes it very hard to see the forest for the trees. I hope this has been thought provoking at least, if not a help in your and others’ games.

Clive.

Ok, I need clarification. I don't understand why the clubface wouldn't be square for a greater distance the more vertical the swing. If it is, even for a minute moment, there has to be less margin of error. If length of the shaft doesn't matter but loft does, could I flatten the lie on a 9 iron, put in a 43" shaft, still have a higher ratio of backspin vs sidespin and hit it much farther with the same accuracy? Does it have to do with shaft flex or should all clubs be the same length with different lofts?
Bill

Correction...I meant if the clubhead is square for a greater distance there has to be more margin for error.
Bill