You are putting and you ask your opponent to tend the flag for you. You stroke the putt, But your opponent fails to pull the flag in time, and your ball strikes the flag stick.

What's your call?

beat your opponent with your putter???

That's called Mountain Golf. Especially prevalent in the corridor between PA and OH called the WVA Panhandle.. LOL.. no offense if we have any Mountaineers in the crowd..

It depends on the circumstances.
If the opponent did not remove the flagstick on purpose and the players ball strikes the flagstick, the one attending the flag is DQ'd.
If it was an accident, like the flagstick stuck in the hole, the one making the putt incurs a 2 stroke penalty or in match play loses the hole.
There are other scenarios that could cause different rulings, but these are the two main occurances.

I go with Bill's answer.

Bill, isn't the rule that when all players' balls are on the green the flag stick must be removed from the hole?

You don't have to have the flag taken out. You can have it attended at any time. As long as it's out of the hole when the ball get there.

I like Klun's answer.

PLEASE don't encourage or humor Klun.

I'm sure Bill will have the right answer, which is probally a 1 or 2 stroke penalty for the guy putting if it was an accident. If it was an accident and I was playing with friends we most certainly would credit the putt to the guy (sprit of the moment rules)

Fred, I agree..... spirit of the moment rules.................
Just last week, I watched a guy rob a convenience store and shoot the young girl behind the counter. It was obvious he needed the money, so I told the police I didn't see anything.

Fred, you love it when I type this kind of stuff huh?

Bill I sure do..

Unfortunity, Bill is correct as always. I say unfortunitly, because I think it stinks that the golfer putting gets a penality due to the guy tending the flag being too slow removing it from the cup. But that's the rule. I don't think it's right, but it's the rule.
And next question. Why wouldn't someone tending a flag, not just pull the flag stick out of the hole, and set the tip of the stick down just behind the back of the cup? This would eliminate the chance of this happening, and remove the chance of the flag getting stuck in the bottom of the cup, which we all know can happen. The golfer would be able to see the hole okay, which is really the only reason to have someone tend the flag. And the chance of a penality is removed. Sorry to complain about the rules, but I really hate to see a golfer get a penality due to his opponent being too slow to react. If it was his OWN caddy, I could go along with the penality, but not his opponent.

I just thought of something about Bill's answer. IF the flag was left in on purpose, the attending golf is DQ-ed. If he was just a little slow and it was an accident, it's a 2 stroke penaliy for the golfer putting.

This is very interesting. I say this because most of the rules of golf do not allow for human judgement to come into play, It's either this or it's that. In this case, the opponent, could have done it on purpose, and just pulled the stick at the last second to make it look like he was trying to do the job. Or he could have just been slow, and it was an accident. HOW DOES ANYONE KNOW FOR SURE?

And if it was declared an "ACCIDENT", Then why is it a penality on the golfer putting? and not on the opponent that had the "ACCIDENT" ?

DON'S RULES OF GOLF;

If it was my rule book, and this happened, it would be,
ONE PUTT HOLED, NO PENALITY, END OF DISCUSSION.

It's not legal to use any devise to point out line.

The best way to tend a flagstick is to pull it out to make sure it isn't stuck and set it back in the hole, but not in the hole that seats it.

Being a little slow to pull the pin is not considered an accident. An accident would be if the pin were stuck and wouldn't come out, or if a witness testified the opponent tending the pin was looking away and didn't know they were putting.

If it is declared an accident, the penalty is on the putter because they are responsible for the flagstick while they are making a stroke.

Don, you're looking at this as if the one doing the putting is a victum...................Unfortunately, very seldom is a person a victum, they're usually volunteers.

If it were your rule book, it would be a different game with a different name.

I can't imagine that all the people playing this game would like being called "Goofers" instead of "Golfers."

Right, you can't set the pin down on the ground because that leaves a mark to mark the line, even though we aren't meaning to do that, that's what the rules say. So if you're going to tend it, do like Bill says.

Or just don't ask, and pull the pin and lay it out of the way and if someone asks, you reply "you need the pin in for that putt????"

OOOOOOH! I see Dr. Rushing carries a "needle" around.

Don I agree..speak to the USGA and I will support you.

Well, now this beg's a question..........................

Fred, when you say you will support Don, are you aware he considers himself a "Jock?"

The putter should make the putt, then run to the hole and pull the flag out before the ball reaches the hole. Simple enough.

Guys, I wasn't saying to LAY the flag stick on the ground behind the hole. I SAID TO PULL THE FLAG, AND THEN PLACE THE TIP OF THE STICK BEHIND THE HOLE, TOUCHING THE GROUND. To make this clearer, you hold the stick vertical, just like it was IN the cup. only you place the tip of the flag stick BEHIND the cup. This in no way can be considered pointing out the line. Your doing the same thing bill suggested, only placing the tip of the stick BEHIND the hole an inch, rather than inside the cup. I don't see any real difference in my suggestion and what Bill mentioned.

Don, I don'tt think you can do that. I think that it's illegal because it can/will make a mark on the green and that can be seen as marking the line of the putt. So that was what I thought you were saying but it's my understanding that's illegal. But I may be wrong.

Scott; Correct me if I've wrong here, but the only time anyone NEEDS to have someone TEND the flag, is when the golfer is so far from the cup, that they can't see the cup if the flag stick is removed. You don't have someone tend the flag when you're 10 feet away. So how would a small mark in the green, an inch behind to edge of the cup be seen by the golfer, when he or she can't see the cup? I can't type for anyone other than myself, but I know I can touch the tip of the flag stick to the green and not leave a mark. And since the flag stick is still touching the ground when the putt is stroked, it woulnd' really matter if I did leave a mark behind when I did lift the stick up and out of the way.
Bottom line is that you only tend the flag when a golfer can't see the cup from where the ball is. And if they can't see the cup well enough to see the line, they surely will not be able to see any mark of the green an inch behind the cup where I rest the tip of the flag. Here's an idea. Next time you're on a green, lift the flag stick out of the hole, then lightly touch the tip of the stick onto the green in 4 spots around the cup, 1 inch from the edge. Then walk 10 feet away and see if YOU can see any marks on the green that would aid you in picking out your line. Then repeat this exersice from a distance that would cause you to ask to have the flag tended. I bet you a brand new putter you can't see any marks on the green from a distance where you would be asking to have the flag tended.

Let's make this real simple................
If you take the flagstick out of the hole and hold it anywhere near the hole while someone is putting, it is considered pointing out the line. In front, on the side, or behind, it makes no difference.
BTW, if every golf group on the course were able to set the pin down behind the hole, there'd be so many indentations around the hole it would look like a texas hail storm hit.

Having someone tend the pin on a putt where a golfer can clearly see the hole, helps depth perception, which helps with speed, especially on an overcast day.

I think it would be beneficial to all of us if this months contest winner uses the gift certificate to purchase a large print, illustrated rule book for Don.

Don, I'm not saying you can't do it without making a mark or that it will be visible or not, but it's my understanding that Rule 8-2b basically says you can't do this legally within the rules of golf because some caddie "could" place the flag on the ground over to the left or right of the cup intentionally to place a mark on the green that the player would use as a guide. Touching the pin to the ground as you tend the flag is considered "marking to line of putt" and I don't think you can touch do that.

I may have that wrong but maybe Bill or others can confirm.

Over my head..anyone else have any wisdom. Don's idea does seem reasonable though.

I think Don's idea is reasonable, but it is against the rules, according to Bill and Scott and most likely the USGA rule book (i don't know because i don't own a rule book)

I'm sorry Don but reason and golf don't go together. Why else would we hit a little white ball as far as we can, go look for it, find it and hit it again, instead of being happy we found it and pick it up and go home.

We agree Don's idea is reasonable, just not legal

Even though Don's actions have nothing to do with targeting the line of the putt, the rule still says you can't touch the green like that because someone else MIGHT use the rule that way.

But remember, it's legal to use something already on the green as a mark for the line of your putt, but it's not legal to make one yourself. So hence the reason you're not supposed to press anything onto the green while your ball is in play. You can use the flagstick (or the butt end of your club) to point to a target on the line but you can't touch the putting surface with it.

We knew this from the beginning.

Woo hoo ouch... Hey Kev, I've got an extra in the bag I don't read that much, you can have it... LOL

Chris, does it have pictures? If it's not illustrated, it won't do him much good.........

That's right, I don't read to good no how

But since there are so many rules wouldn't I need an extra cart just to carry the thing around. And if they make the pictures small enough, my eyesight is bad enough I wouldn't be able see it and would just not carry it.

Here's one more rule I don't alway follow. Putting with the flag in. If my ball is a simple tap in, and there are 3 others off the green. I might just tap in my butt, and not worry about pulling the flag, or whether my ball hits the stick or not. This saves time, and it part of what READY GOLF is all about. Some times, if you are playing READY GOLF, the rules can't be followed to the letter.

Right on... saves time marking, moving marker etc....
Why do you "tap in your butt" though...Always use your ball...
JUST KIDDING ...note you spelling...

If that ain't the pot callin' the kettle black...

Bill, Self said YOU again!!!!!

Hey, it's all ok.............
Not following the rules and "Ready Golf" was designed to get people out of the bowling alleys and onto the golf course.

I think new players taking up the game and not learning the Etiqette and Rules of Golf, before they hit the course, will be able to get this game down to the level it belongs.

BTW, if everyone learned the etiquette and rules of the game, it would speed up golf more than "Ready Golf" and fudging the rules.

Picky, Picky...Left out one "R"...

BillH...
You are absolutely"spot on" again...You can thank Dicks, Golf Galaxy, Golf catalog's and on and on. When I first started I was a caddy...You learned quick....
Marshal's today just ride around, stop and say hello, say it's a nice day, ride off to return in about and hour and then repeat the same thing. Starter's and marshal's don't put groups on the correct tee's, don't police raking traps, fixing ball marks on green's and etc. and etc. and etc..Everybody looks like a golfer, dress, equipment and etc....
You can't teach them anything because they already "wrote the book"...

Selftaught,
We can start a movement.

BTW, I started golf by caddying in a private CC when I was a kid. Became the pro of that CC.
Bill

HEY BILL H...

A "modern day "Horatio Alger" story..."Rags to richs"...
Only in America....Making a "living" from a sport or hobby
has got to be the "best"...
It is the "lucky & blessed" person that finds "passion" in
their "life's work"...

sure have to be careful of where the fingers land on the old keyboard these days. Some people don't know their putts from a hole in the ground.

Don...

YOU-DA-MAN...
We both type phoneticaly...(I Think...?)....

Self, I never really knew how to type until I got a computer for my business. And I didn't get very fast typing until I started posting stuff on this site awhile back. Fingers just tend to get ahead of my brain too much, and can't tell you for sure what the spelling might be.

You have me in stitches. I am not sure about all that and I am sure Bill is correct but my take is the putter is responsible. So if your ball is far enough away to ask for a tend just ask the person to pull it after you hit it. I would not want anyone placing the tip down around the hole causing indentations around the hole.

If someone asks me to tend, sometimes I put my foot behind the hole and rest the tip of the stick on my foot. I played one course after it rained a lot and the sticks were getting caught in the hole so I didn't want to risk not being able to pull it before the ball got there!

Tony; If you ask to have the flag tended, It IS the job of the person tending the flag to PULL is after the ball is struck. They can't leave it in the cup, tha't not an option. Therefore, there is no reason for the goler to ASK for the flag to be pulled, it's a given that it MUST be pulled.

Well, Don, I'm with you. It doesn't really matter if the person tending the flag did not pull it intentionally or if it got stuck. The putter's job was to put and not pull so why should he be penalized.

Thank you Jan. Really glad you joined this site.

Because if the player is not willing to accept responsibility, they should walk over and remove the flag themselves.
The reasons people have a flag attended are because they may be in a position not to see the hole, or it may help in depth perception and judging distance. In any case, it is the call of the player to decide whether they want the pin attended or out of the hole.

Golf is like life. Some people play the game the way it should be played and some people bitch and blame everything but themselves.

BTW, besides having the hole to hold the flag, the cup liner has water drain holes in the bottom. The correct way to tend a flag is to pull the flag, place it back in the hole resting on one of the drain holes and stand two or three feet from the cup. When you raise the flag, it will never stick.

Jan, you have got to stop this and soon. We don't need Don getting all giddy when people agree with him. Or is Jan just another one of Don's alter ego's he uses on this site to agree with himself???

One more time Bill H. hits the "ball out of the park"...
If you watch any professional caddy they tend the pin exactly as Bill states...Pin resting on drain slots..Never down in the actual pin slots. as soon as player strikes putt pin is removed...Why the confusion...The "pin in" provides excellent depth perception from 20"+...
You should try it...
Bill did you caddy when you were young...?