There is some work being done on one of our local courses. They are turning what was a waste area into a pond. Around the perimeter, they have put straw on the ground to protect it until the grass grows in. It has not been marked with stakes for ground under repair. Would you consider it as such just for the obvious reason that it is under repair???

I would assume they don't really want you hitting your ball from there and taking a divot. So I'd be a nice guy and take a free drop out of the area and save the new green they planted. That's what I'd want golfers to do if it was my golf course.

Makes me wonder why they didn't put stakes around the area to make it obvious...

I would consider it GUR. I actually make a judgment call like that sometimes at my course. If there's an area they're working on but haven't marked or an area they should be working on i will make the call.

Area being worked on.........YES
Area they should work on.....NO

But it's OK to play it all as GUR because the members of this forum don't agree with the USGA Rules of Golf and make up their own rules anyway..............

I knew I would likely solicit a response from Bill...I was hoping he was STILL ON VACATION!

It's true. Bill is correct and I know that. I admit it. Good thing I'm not playing on tour.

Since most courses don't always have player assistants available I usually just ask if there are any repairs or rules for the day on the course when checking in. Sometimes it is as simple as 90 degree rule on specific holes. Anyway it is a good way to see how the manager wants you to handle those situations. Although Bill is right, sometimes you have to use your good judgment because like Don said they most likely do not want you making any divots in an area they are obviously trying to protect. I guess the contractor is not a golfer and does not know to stake the area. The course I usually play at is pretty well staffed and they are good about staking things off and even marking GUR areas with white paint but not all courses have the budget for that. Maybe they can add that to the new stimulus package.

I respect the rules of golf as much as the next guy and understand why they are important.
But for a 16-handicapper out on an afternoon with a couple buddies? I'm picking the ball up out of the straw and dropping it. There's no doubt the superintendent didn't want players hitting out of that, but just didn't stake it.
Submitted with all due respect to our friend in the great state of Wyoming.

I'm afraid, Bill is right again.

This rules forum should help everyday golfers to learn more about the rules of golf.
So we should try to find solutions, which are based on the rules of golf. I don't mind, what golfers practise during their daily or weekly round of golf with their buddies.
But nevertheless, we should try to find out, what the rule based answer is.

The rules define ground under repair as a part of the course, whis has been marked as such by the committee.
Otherwise, in a competition - and this is where the rules of golf are important - every group of golfers would decide on theire own, if a free drop could br taken or not. So we would have different conditions for different golfers and not a fair competition.

McFade

McFade, you're right.

Again, I'm way to liberal with the rules (and the Bible in fact but let's not bring religion into this ) when I'm out with friends or just playing by myself, and I know that. I usually say since no one is writing a check at the end of a round, if the players got to hit where roots and rocks will likely damage the club, let them move it. I know during competition they'd leave it as is, but we're not at that time. But during competition, of which I have a 3day event coming up at the end of this month, I do my damnedest to stick to the to the letter.

But it does skew our score though I doubt more than a stroke or two. But you and Bill are right, and we should promote an accurate understand of the rules. Thank you!

Question will be asked before our tournament next weekend, if it's not on the rule sheet. I'm sure, like the local rule allowing loose rocks to be removed from the sand traps so you don't damage your club-or yourself-they will say that area should be treated as GUR.

While I'm sure both Bill and McFade are correct, I'm also pretty sure most golf courses, DON'T have a committee standing around making up day to day rules to take care of this kind of stuff, especially if the course has had some recent damage due to weather, like rain damage. And I'm pretty sure the people paying the bills for course maintainance would agree, taking a free drop away from the new grass area under the pine straw, is exactly what they would want us to do. Not play the ball as it lays, and take a nice big divot in the newly seeded grass area. Having respect for the rules of golf is fine, but it's also good the be respectful of the golf course you are playing on.

If they don't have a committee or the ability to know what to protect on their golf course, they shouldn't own a golf course. That's part of a golf course superintendent and his staff's responsibility and they see and inspect the course everyday.

Why are we, on this forum, trying to find creative ways to change the rules to our liking???? I'm sorry, but I just don't get it.

Let's all run the red light because it's set too long and there's no cars coming. (eventually something bad will happen)

Come on Gang, let's play the game the way it should be played.

BTW, I do understand if there are some things that are agreed upon by the group before playing.............but they should be things that do not alter a players score for hdcp. purposes and not following rules and not turning in scores does that.

Not playing the game by the rules also creates bad habits. Case in point, look how comments about rules being wrong and not following them have become a habit on this forum.

Rules..........I can't believe it.........last night while we were playing poker, I tried to claim a pot by telling them I didn't agree with "according to Hoyle" and I decided my 3 of a kind should beat a flush.

Oh well, being banned from the club will probably save me a lot of money.

That's perfectly right, Bill.

These people believe, that it is unsportsmanlike, to play strictly along the rules of golf. I dont't think, that they believe the same about baseball or hockey.

It's quite often that I play in a match or in a club competition and meet golfers who play on the course at least twice a week.
Then I find out, that they don't know how to apply some of the most important rules. The reason for this lack of knowledge is, that they practise a lot, but always with their home made rules.

They often loose matches to opponents, who know, how they can gain advanteges from the rules of golf.
So, basic knowledge can help every golfer; and the best way to get and preserve knowledge of the rules is to play according to the rules regularly.

McFade

With the state of th economy being as bad as it is, NOT every golf course has the man power or time to mark-off EVERY area that should be marked off as ground under repair. I'm sure they could hire more staff to do the added work, and then they could raise the greens fee to pay the wages of those workers. Bottom line is WE the golfers PAY more in greens fees, something I believe the majority of use don't want to do.

McFade; If I was playing in a tourniment, and my ball ended up in an area as mentioned in the first post, I'D BE HAPPY TO PLAY THE BALL AS IT LIES, because it's a tourniment, and it's what is required, and the hell with what ever damage I might do to the golf course. But if it was my regular weekday round of golf, I'd rather respect the golf course, and screw the RULE BOOK.

Every golf course has greens keepers and most have a pro or golf director. The superintendent and his staff, see the golf course every day before people even tee it up. They let the golf shop know of any problems, i.e. the area behind the 3rd green has been trampled by a moose and reseeded. The golf shop then lets the people who are playing today know this area will be played as GUR. This has nothing to do with good economy, or bad economy. If the economy of a golf course is so bad they don't have anyone to mow the greens or rake the traps, they probably aren't open for play anyway.
Again, if it's not marked on the course, or not presented or posted as a local or temporary rule, all a golfer is doing is using creative avoidance and making up their own rules.

DAMN THE COURSE...FULL SPEED AHEAD...
NO...I agree with Don why tear up new bushes, flower beds or new sodded areas.
What should the group have done before they notified the pro shop
of what they just observed? Tear it up and then tell them?
Handicap and rules are certainly of the utmost importance. But,
again leaving the facility or venue as we found it should be our main
responsibility...Fixing ball marks, raking traps and yes staying out of area's that we perceive in our foursome as clearly "under repair" marked or not marked.

I think the golf course manager, if he was not able to stake an area off (let's say the workers are constantly doing work in the area and it's just too inconvenient to work around stakes) should at least have the sense to put a sign up on the door of the pro shop, just like whent there are temp greens or cart path only rule, to say "area around pond on hole #...which is covered in straw is to be considered GUR". Not too difficult.

YES...
But the point is, how do we "golfers behave" when they don't post it or alert us before hand? Do the right thing.
LET OUR CONSCIENCE BE OUR GUIDE!!!

Selftaughtman

Not sure if I fall into the 'these people' category but as for on the course, I don't care what anyone else does on the course rules or score wise unless we're playing in a competition. Then, it's by the rules. When I play softball, it's competitive. And, it's by the rules. If I'm in my backyard playing whiffle ball with my 3 yr old and he had his 3 strikes, I'm not going to tell him to go sit down cause he struck out, I'll keep pitching to him. I adapt because it's not competitive.


As Don said, with many of the courses here in bankruptcy, maybe they should do the things you say they should be doing, but something has to give and it does. We don't have someone driving around the $15-to-play course marking up new GUR areas and such. That's a luxury that many courses don't have. Do they do it for major repairs, sure. But it's not a daily or weekly thing by any means from what I can see.

So I adapt and play what I think most appropriate. Could I play every shot of every round by the book, sure, but it would also add length to my rounds as I'm sorting out which rule to apply and calling the clubhouse several times around


So I guess I'm an equal-sport-cheater in a sense.

If because of the economy, the course doesn't have the money to mark or let their customers know about the new bushes, flower beds or new sodded areas, then how did they come up with the money to plant all this stuff?

I guess it's safe to assume all of you that are concerned about the preservation of the course never take divots. But, actually, we don't have to worry about that. Let's tee it up in the fairway, rough and sand traps. Forget the rules, we're leaving the facility or venue as we found it.

I bet some of you roll the ball around to improve your lie.

Let's see...
Dream forum foursome...
Bill H, Scott (srushing) and ? I've got to think about this.
Certainly in the "scramble" format we can "roll it over".
Yep, you are correct Bill, replacing divots or putting in sand on Bermuda, should be a given...

The way I look at it, When I'm playing golf on the course, I'm just borrowing the golf course, I don't own it.

And most of us know that there are TWO types of people when it comes to BORROWING THINGS.

There are those that USE the item, and don't care if they damaged it or not.

And there are those of us, MYSELF included, That ALWAYS, return the item in as good condition, if not better condition, then when we recieved it.
Maybe this is why I respect the golf course, and don't tear it up for no good reason. And maybe this is why some others would rather follow the RULES and the hell with the golf course.

I think, theat the opinions of DON on one side and some others on the other side differ as much, as it seems at first sight.

Bothe sides do not wish to damage the course more than unavoidable. But Bill and others what to discuss, what would be right, if playing according to the rules, wheras the others tell, what they would in a given situation.
What people can learn from an argument like this is, how to play under serious circumstances (important matchplay or official competition) or how to behave during a friendly everyday round of golf.

On a normal round of golf I wouldn't mind to keep away from an area, which is obviously under repair but not marked. But I have in mind, what the rule sais about GuR and try to play as close to the rules as possible. To do so, I should know, what the rules expect me to do.

In most cases there is no loss of fun or respect to the course, when playing according to the rules.

McFade

McFade,
It's 6:40 AM in South Dakota. What time is it in Hamburg?

OK, so let me see if I understand what we're doing.
We're saying, "If it's a tournament or competition, we should follow the rules. However, if it's a friendly round of golf we can be more lenient."

Example: If my ball is next to a newly planted tree and there is no local rule telling me to move the ball a couple of club lengths from the tree, I should use my good judgement and protect the golf course. I AGREE WITH THAT.
If there is no posted local ruling stating we can/should move the ball, then we're saying I and/or the rest of my group has to make a decision to save the tree or go against the rules. And, everyone, as they should, wants to save the integrity of the course.

Well! This all beg's a question??????????????

If it's a friendly game, just a fun outing and doesn't mean anything, then why wouldn't I follow the rules and save the tree. All I have to do is declare the ball unplayable and I accomplish both. The only thing that would keep me from doing this is my ego wants me to have as low a score as possible. But if it doesn't mean anything, then what difference would the extra stroke make?

BTW, unless your game is match play, why would you not hole out every putt?

I can see only three reasons for not following the rules.

1. The golfer doesn't know the rules.
2. The golfer's ego is in the way.
3. The golfer is cheating.

It's so easy to create bad habits. If I play all month with my buddies and we give each other putts (inside the leather? but soon we don't even measure them) and at the end of the month my friends and I enter a best ball foresome. Now, we either "fudge" and give each other putts, or we get the shakes because we're putting 2 or 3 footers that we usually don't have to make. Either scenario is not good.

There is nothing that takes away from the enjoyment of golf by following the rules of the game.

Bill H.

A "friendly match" doesn't mean that I'm not trying to shoot a low score... If there is a "little something" on the match. I insist that all rules be followed (other then my "toe wedge" when nobody is looking)...

Selftaughtman

Bill, I agree.

It is really easy to follow the rules in a friendly game and be thoughtfull about the interests of the golfclub.
So let's not yield to the ideas of those, who disrespect the dignified rules of golf.
Let's not forget, that they are older the the US.

McFade

Btw, it's 09.55 pm in Hamburg; should be 12.05 am in Deadwood.

McFade

I love you guys, I mean you all make this site so much fun. And we have people on all side of the issue.

Just makes me wonder, given how you follow the Rule book of Golf to the letter, how do you interpret the Bible?

AMEN (CHECKMATE)

Actually, although they're interpreted according to "man," neither book needs interpretation as they're both clearly defined. Unfortunately, there are slip ups in following the guidelines of either book. It is, after all, the nature of man, for he is in the world.

I guess you are right...There are penalties if you don't follow either book... But the "good book" forgives...The otherone you can be disqualified...

If golfers learn and understand the rules of the game, the rules will help them far, far more than they will harm them.

It's not just "rules"...............................it's the Etiquette and Traditions of a great game that people should learn and preserve. That's even more important than worrying about harming a golf course with a swing of a club. A broken tree limb can be repaired. The integrity of the game, if people don't pay attention, can be lost forever.

BILL H.

Like you, I like to "jerk the chain" a little...
I am a huge tradionalist and preserver of the game...
Still competitive as HELL...Just don't take it as serious as I did. I am way over on your side about the game...

Selftaughtman

I will second Bill's comment that knowing the rules will help you more than hurt you. I see so many people hit one into a hazard and tee up another one from the tee box. I'm like "why don't you drop at the hazard and hit 3 from there instead of from here?". They're like, "Oh, right..."

You finally got it right.

A Chivas 25 over, and I'll spring for the tab.

Bill when you're right your right and you're right.

This has been a real good discussion reading it you have to laugh. The bottom line is all courses have a superintendent and if they are not checking the course in the morning. Then they should not be doing the job. I play at three courses on a regular basis Bookside is a private club so yes they do check and San Ramon golf club is public and they are even better at checking and marking most GUR areas with white paint every day. They keep a list that is updated through out the day with conditions on the course. The third is a par 68 public course out in the country. They are in danger of folding even though they get a great deal from the city of Ripon on the lease. The owner operator and his sons are very good at knowing what is going on in the field every day. If you have a question on any of these courses you can call in to the club house at any hole and ask for a ruling. If you want to save the grass, tree, flowers whatever at any time you can take an unplayable lie. There is no legitimate reason anywhere in this thread to not follow the rules. This was discussed before on a different thread and it was said by some wise sole. When you start moving your ball without accountability or not counting shots it is cheating. The one thing that makes golf a great, great sport is you keep score yourself it is up to you to keep the games integrity. It is different than any other sport and can not really be compared. We keep score to get an index that is used for tournament play so every round score really does count. So although I do relate to all of the examples given and why you might want to move a ball there is a provision for doing this and a penalty to be taken.

Tony,

You can be my "wingman" anytime.

Bill

You guy's have by-passed the enjoyment side of game...
If I have to take an unplayable in a un-marked GUR...The bush, new sod or flowers are long gone... The average golfer should play for enjoyment... Serious players (low hndcp.) absolutely play by all the rules. Average players play in very few tournaments, other then a "scramble"...If they followed every rule, it would add 45 min. to 1 hr. on each round.

I still vote with Don on this one....

I do understand what you are saying and I am just saying for me and my opinion is there are rules and if you play the game play by the rules. I really enjoy the game, I have a lot of fun and so do the people I play with. Golf is what I do for fun. I am not saying to do anything to slow the game just count the stroke when you move the ball.

Selftaught,

So this all beg's a question???

Who will emerge as the best in creative avoidance, you or Don?

Shoulder to Shoulder...I think we can take you both...

Game enjoyment, we will win "hands down".
Creative interpretation goes with the above...Again we win...
Avoidance isn't in the equation when you are playing "game enjoyment.
Your red rebuttal's take the position of the low handicapper.
I disagree that making the average player more rules oriented will "speed-up" play.
Certainly my position is not the "touchy...feely" position of forum members...I realize our expertise is at a higher level and we would never think of bending the rules...FOR ANY REASON!

Selftaughtman

HEY Don...

NEED HELP!!!

STM

You're on.

Although your handicaps are probably much lower than ours and Don knows my score usually joins the Century Club, I'm sure Tony will agree, we'll struggle through it.

PM Don and tell him to suit up.

Hey who is talking golf...Don looks BIG...(Ha!HA!)

Bring it on OLD MAN!!!

Tony,
What are we going to do with these two after we own them?
Scott won't pay much for a couple of caddies who don't follow, or, for that matter, don't even know the rules).
Laney doesn't strike me as the type that would buy old meat out of the discount section.
Aimee's husband probably doesn't want a couple of old putters laying around.
I don't think we can reach reserve if we try to auction them off.
You know, I've always wanted a caucasian gardner. Maybe we could go that route.
Bill

Hey, this is between you and Tony and Self and Don. I'm just an innocent by-stander... I always play by the rules

There's no question about your integrity or character, they are both top notch. Everyone knows you would never, at least intentionally, do what wasn't the right thing.

(Scott, PM me and I'll tell you where to send the check).

Scott....

Don't let him buy you... I am waiting for Don to enter the fray...
I may need you...STAND-BY...
Tony called me the OLD MAN... I need someback-up...

Selftaughtman

I meant to say, "PM me and let me know where to send the check."

OPh, gotcha! So just send me back the check when it arrives..

Bill,
There is not competition STM is a selfproclaimed Chain Jerker so we can't take much stock there.

Tony,
Do you know where Northridge CC is in Fair Oaks and Cameron Park CC in Cameron Park, near Sacramento?
Bill

I wish you guys could all be sitting watching the waves crash along the shore line like I am....Nice rhythm, just like a smooth golf swing.

YOU GO SCOTT...You deserve it...

North Ridge Country Club is a very nice club.I have played in a tournament there once but have walked the course a few times when my son was playing in tournaments with the JGANC. They sponsored a big tournament every year. It is a nice course great club house but I kind of remember the driving range being problematic. It has been a few years but I remember a big putting area in front of the club house where we all gathered before the tournaments. Very nice club. It is up north by my moms house.


I have not played Cameron Park yet. I hear it is a real challenging course though. It is also just outside of Sacramento about an hour from me.

OK, so here is how it was handled at the course over the weekend. They had put red flags and stakes/rope around the areas in question as well as big signs saying "keep off". When we were going over the rules they told us not to hit out of that area, to consider it GUR. Ironically, I hit my tee shot in to a new sand bunker on one of the holes affected. I took a free drop (laterally) out of the bunker as we all agreed that was the correct action.

If the bunker was part of the GUR (beeing completely inside the marked area), the correct spot to drop would be the nearest point of Relief (NPR)outside the ground under repair (GUR).
If the ball lies in the GUR more to the fairway side, You might have a nice place to drop.
If the ball lies far from the fairway, the NPR might be on the other side of the bunker in nasty rough.
The correct way to determine the NPR is described in
the definitions to the rules, and the procedure to take relief inrule 25-1 b.

In decision 25-1b/2 (look at the home page of USGA):
http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rules-and-Decisions/
is a nice illustration how to find the correct NPR.

McFade

Nearest point of relief was the fairway to the right of the bunker and GUR. Left of the bunker was water.

Sounds like a situation, that was easy to handle.
It's always a nice experience, that the rules can help the player.
What a pity for those, who do not like to observe the rules strictly.

McFade

Interesting that the Bible was brought up for comparison with the Rules of Golf book. Some people will tell you that the Bible is nothing more than the BEST SELLING NOVEL OF ALL TIME. It's been on the Best seller list for as long as the list has been around. It's been tranlated into dozens of languages, some tranlatons not being as good as others. It comes in a few different versions, one's to suit just about any taste.

God and Golf, wow...

In Lee Trevino's words:

"If you are caught on a golf course during a storm and are afraid of lightning, hold up a 1-iron. Not even God can hit a 1-iron."

And just like the Rules of Golf, people select which rules they want to follow!

That is one of the best things about golf is there is a place for everyone every skill level and every age. You got to love that.

Now reading that it seems as since it is not marked and there is no intent of picking up the straw it is not GUR. However I would simply ask the super to mark it or have a local rule established.

Update on the area of the course mentioned above...the ground where they freshly sodded or seeded has big signs saying "keep off", the sand traps are in play. Our clue that the traps were in play was when they actually put rakes into them. Every one seems to have figured it out.

That is good. Hopefully they will make the next area they are working on so there is no confusion

I would definitely consider that ground under repair and play it accordingly. I don't think the course management would want you to play your shot from that area.

@WGE
If You read this thread from the beginning, You might find out, that the definitions in the rules of golf state, that
"Ground under repair" is any part of the course so marked by order of the Committee or so declared by its authorized representative.

So it is not up to the player to decide about it.
Bill has already pointed out that You always have the possibility to deem Your ball unplayable and play from another place - taking one penalty stroke (Rule 28).

I'm shure that, if You do that and inform the managment of the golf course, there will at least be a lokal rule to be found at the information board the following day.

McFade