DU,

I'm not a big fan of huge driver heads. I use a TaylorMade 360 now and that's about as big as I am comfortable with. I've tried the TM 580 and the Nike Ignite and, like your Soo Long, I sliced the crap out of them - absolutely no control.

I have a theory about this. I believe that the mass of the head may cause it to lag behind in the downswing as opposed to a head with less mass. Nothing scientific - it's just the way the 580 and Ignite felt. I think that this could be corrected by going to a stiffer shaft with a lower bendpoint.

JW

On the subject of mass, they both weigh the same, about 200 grams, so the mass is the same. But the bigger the head, the more chance for hitting the ball a long ways from the center of the sweetspot, and that means more twisting of the shaft at impact. That would explain the loss of control and the big slice. I don't know what shaft you had installed in the 450 soo loong head, but if you check out the shafts that Golfsmith sells, you will see ads for shafts that are designed for the larger heads. Head and shaft lag is a big problem with 450 heads and most shafts on the market. Look for a shaft with as little torque as possible and a fast recovery time. I have an Aldila NV 65 regular flex shaft that I had Golfsmith SST pure for me and it's working fine in my 420cc Snake Eyes 600TC driver. Try to find a shaft with a torque between 3.0 and 3.7 at the most. A low bend point helps get the ball into the air and adds distance. If the torque rating is low, the low bend point should not hurt too much. But if the torque rating is high, you're in sliceville/hookville all day. I hope this helps.
And as JW stated, smaller heads work better for some players. If you can hit the ball in the middle of the club face with a smaller headed driver, what do you need a bigger head for? You will not find many 460cc drivers on the PGA tour. I believe Vijay is still using the 330 Launcher, not the new 400 or 460 model. Good luck and let me know which shaft you have in your driver, that might be the culprit. Don

Don,

You stated it very clearly. My use of the term 'mass' was incorrect, but I hadn't had my daily caffeine fix yet.

I have a UST 65 ATR in my TM 360 - it works well with my swingspeed, but I think if I put the same shaft in one of the larger heads it would feel like a buggy whip.

JW

Hi JW; On a different subject, I believe you mentioned that your wife works for Dick's Sporting Goods, is that correct? If so, do you have any information from Dick's on how good the Swing Jacket is working out? I was wondering if they are being returned to Dick's or if the people that buy them are happy with them. Do you have any way of finding out about this subject without too much trouble on your part or your wife's part? I am wondering if the jacket is worth it and I read somewhere that there was a stack of them in the return bin at Target's to prove they are not too good of a product. Of course when I checked Target, it seems that they don't even sell them, so how could the person that mentioned the full return bins at Target know what he was talking about? Sounds more like one person with a case of sour grapes than fact. If you have any info on the Swing Jacket, it would be appreciated.
As to the shaft in your driver, that's a shaft I had looked at myself. I went with the Rifle Graphite 65 for my fairway woods because the torque is only 3.0 and the weight is 65grs. vs. 73-76grs. The bend point is the same, MID, so ball flight should be about the same. One more reason that smaller heads my works better for anyone that can hit the ball well, is that the smaller the head the less air resistance it will have. In the real world, that should mean you can swing the smaller head driver faster than the big 460cc head driver. It may not be a big difference in club head speed, but if you are happy with a 360cc head, why give up any swing speed and the resulting distance lose? The Proforce XL is a shaft that was designed for the larger heads, and might be a good choice for the 450 soo loong. The torque is a little high at 3.9, but it should be workable. Thanks for the imput on the 65ATR,good to know it's a good shaft. Will keep it in mind for future reference. Don

Don,

I'll check on the Swing Jacket. My wife is the front-end manager, so all of the returns come through her area. I'm not sure she'd know the SJ from the moon, but it's worth a try. I'll probably stop at the store sometime this weekend, though, and if she can't help I can check with the store pro. Its premise reminds me of a swing trainer I had several years ago - it amounted to a couple of tight elastic loops that went on just below the elbows. They were connected by just enough material to keep your elbows in and still allow a swing. It cost something like $15 and worked pretty well.

I'm glad to hear you have had the same thoughts on wind resistance with the giant heads that I have had. I've brought that up a few times at my home course and gotten laughed at.

I've got the ATR 65 in my 5-wood as well. I like it well enough but not as well as in the driver. I'm thinking it might actually be too tip-soft for our tight fairways (since it works much better from heavier lies).

JW

Downunder,
JJW and Don are right on with the problems of ultra large headed drivers. When you hit that big head on the toe or heel it really torques open or shut and the shaft is everything. In many cases, the larger the head, the harder a person tries to swing as they think there is a larger margin of error. This causes a few things to change in the swing and most all of them are not good.

JJW, if you read this, I agree with you on the size of the head slowing down the swing speed. I use a 983E Titleist with a 757 Speeder shaft. The head is 350 cc. On a swing computer, I swing my club 3 mph faster than a 580 Taylor made. That was alternating 5 shots with each club. Not scientific, but hey it sounds good huh?
Bill H.

Bill,

That's scientific enough for me. I've got carpal tunnel syndrome in my right hand and arthritis in both, so my speed has dropped to 92 at last check. I lost about 30 yards off the driver, then got about 1/2 of that back switching shafts. I don't see my swingspeed increasing so I'm now on the hunt for a < 400cc head that pushes the COR envelope. Either that or I'll have to move up to the regular tees - aaarrrggghhhh!!!!

JW

Don,

I see you're playing the SE 600TC. How do you like it? I demoed quite a few drivers & discovered that in general anything much over 400cc felt awkward to me. I ended up going with a snake eyes 600T (385cc) & absolutely love it. My swing speed is 110+ & I generally carry the ball at least 275. Never been happier with a driver. BUT....always looking for that elusive extra couple yards & have been eyeing the 600TC & 600TJ. Have you hit either the 600T or the TJ for comparison to your TC?

Don and TBC,

You guys are pretty hot on the Snake Eyes 600 series. That's one of the heads from Golfsmith that I'm considering. The other is their Hi-COR Plus 400cc - I like the stability of the .350 shaft. Do you have any feedback on the Hi-COR?

JW

Hi Guys, A lot of response to the 600 TC with a few questions about the series, so here goes! First of all I read all the info in the Golfsmith catalog and fliers and picked the 600TC for two reasons. Golfsmith lists the launch angle of the 10.5 degree drivers and 3 woods in each line they sell. The 600TC had the highest launch angle(12.55) for the driver and that was one thing I was looking for, high launch angle for more carry. Golfsmith also rates each driver for workability and forgiveness, with the 600TC being rated maximum for workability and foregiveness both, a win/win pick in my book. They also list the back/spin rate and it was good also. I wanted a driver with a high launch angle and one I could work if I wanted to. That's the main reason for the 600TC. I went with the 12 degree loft for more carry distance for this 57 year young golfer that doesn't hit his driver and woods as far as I should compared to my irons. I hit my 7 iron 165-170 and if I get 240 out of the driver it's one of my better ones. I measured my swing speed this spring and it topped out at 107, and 240 maximum is not in line with a 107 swing speed, so I have to work on why it's so short. But that's a different subject. Back to the 600 series. The 600 has a lower launch angle and is 385cc compared to the 420cc of the TC, so that eliminated the 600 from my list. The 600TJ is 460cc and has a lower launch angle also, plus it wasn't available at the time I got the 600TC. So I would still go with the TC. As for the Hi-cor 400, it has a launch angle of 12.2 (a little less the the 600TC) and only a moderate rating for workability, so I eliminated that one as well. After I built my 600TC and lauched the second ball I hit with it about 25-30 yards longer than my other drivers, I decided I made the right choice. Then I made a fatal mistake, I let my wife use it on a par four hole we were playing and she hit it about 150 yards down the center of the fairway on her first swing with it. That may not be real far, but for her it was hugh. Then I made mistake number 2, I told her to use it again on the next par 4, and she hit a second 150 yard shot right down the middle. After four 150 yard shots for 9 holes with my new driver, I had to go back to Golfsmiths to get parts for HER NEW DRIVER. Golfsmith had the Hi-Cor driver on sale at the time and I wanted a 15 degree driver for her slower swing speed so that's what I purchased. It came with a Hi-cor 50 gram shaft as part of the sale price and she doesn't swing the driver fast enough too cause the high torque rating of this shaft to come into play. For anyone else, I would recommend a better shaft with a lot less torque rating. After I built the Hi-Cor for her I noticed that it is a 400cc head but it looks bigger than my 420cc 600TC head. It has a larger face surface area than my 600TC also. My 600TC is taller top to bottom at the back of the head and that is why it measures 420cc. The 600TC is also a composite head with a graphite crown, similar to the Callaway ERC Fusion, and I had demoed the ERC and liked it, one more reason I went with the 600TC.
JW: You don't like the looks of big heads so I would recommend the 600TC over the larger looking Hi-Cor.
Bill: Thanks for the swing speed data, that is about what I was thinking would be the case. Three MPH should be about 6 yards or so if I'm right, and that matters to most golfers I have met. Six yards is six yards less next shot.
Bigcorn: I haven't hit the 600 or TJ, but you might want to compare the heads in the store and see if the TC looks bigger at address. They don't always have all their drivers built up for demoing, but you could see if they do and hit each one and see if you can tell any difference in the store. They have the computer in the store and that might tell you something usefull, worth a try.
Boy was that a long winded gust of hot air. And my fingers are tired from typing all this, time to go to the range and work on that issue with my lack of driver distance. Type at you later. Don

this month's Golf magazine has an article about how swing plane affects distance & gives some drills to work on. I haven't had the opportunity yet, but I'm going to give them a try--have you seen that article, Don?

my .02, Golf magazine is MUCH better than Golf Digest..

Don,

Great feedback! When I lived in Pittsburgh there was a Golfsmith store (since closed) so I could actually see the heads. Now that I'm in Charlotte I don't have that luxury. In fact, they have nothing in the Carolinas at all.

What shaft are you using?

Thanks.

JW

Don,
On that 107 mph swing speed and 240 yd. drive. I have watched people swing for as high a swing speed as they can generate. Timing gets a little off and the club head is at top speed for a short distance in the hitting area causing the ball to pop off the driver before max compression of the ball and trampolining of the clubface. The trick is to carry the head speed through the ball. I don't know that I'm correct, but that might be why you're not getting the distance to match the head speed. And, you're right, the shaft will be a major player in making that happen. The other is making sure you're swinging through the ball.
By the way, as you know, this is just my opinion, and we all know what those are worth.
Bill H.

HI Guys thanks for your help.

Don I am using a MCS shaft in the club, here is the info on it: I copy and pasted it from website...
The MCS 70™ (Multi Control System) is the next generation in tour shafts featuring flex technology designed specifically for today's "Oversized Drivers" - in a striking "Pure Ice Orange color".
The shaft has a high bend point and is tip stiff - offering accuracy, uniformity, quality and superior control.
Dynamic torsional tip stability provides incredible feel, remarkable consistency and more distance.
The MCS 70™® is a Subsidiary/Joint Venture Manufacturing effort in facilities owned by Apache Golf™®;
Qing DaoHon-Da-Composite Mfg® and DongKwang Industry Co. Ltd®. The MCS 70™ achieves the same high Quality Production Standards that are synonymous with Apache Golf® Qing DaoHonda-Composite Golf® and DongKwang®.
Standard .335 parallel tip
Trimming instructions: for "R" flex, butt cut to playing length; for "S" flex, tip 1/2" - 1" inch, butt cut to length

Hi Guys, Thanks for the replys. The MCS shaft sounds good so that shouldn't be the problem. Just noticed they don't list a torque rating for the shaft and that may be a factor.I do have the Golfworks 2004 catalog, and they list shafts with a player profile, some shafts are rated as being for players with slice problems and some for hook problems. They don't list the MCS, but if there is such a thing as one shaft for slicers and one for hookers, that might be a factor? I just read in Golf Magazine about the gearnut, he had a slice removed by having a regular flex shaft installed in place the the stiff that he was using. Shafts bend, and if the timing is off, it may be causing the head to be open at the point of impact, which would cause a slice. That may be what's happening with you. A high bend point and stiff tip could be all wrong for you and the head you have, don't really know, but it's a possibility.
Yes, I read the article and I'm wondering if I used all of the drills that added distance to the iron they were using, can I get an extra 50 yards of carry? That's about what you get if you add up what each drill adds? Sounds good but I doubt it will happpen. As for my driver,Golfsmith was selling it with an Aldila NV65 shaft and Winn grip as a package deal that saved me about $45.00. I had Golfsmith SST Pure the shaft for an extra $10.00 as I figured it would be worth the money. I talked to Dick Weiss, who is the president of SST and quite helpful. He stated that the tour players are all going to the SST Puring for their shafts as it help promote better ball contact. Golfsmith did a test hitting factory drivers and SST Pured shafts in their drivers. Each driver was set up in a robot driving machine and it took three times as long to set up the factory drivers to get them to hit the ball in the middle of the club face. The head didn't return to the same place as it was set to with the none SST Pured shafted drivers. If the shaft isn't positioned in the head the right way, the club will not return to the ball the same way it's set up at address and it will also vary a little, so impact will not be as consistant. I was using an $85.00 shaft and a $105.00 head so I figured the extra $10.00 for the SST Puring was worth it. I didn't want to invest $185.00 in a new driver and not like it so I eliminated one variable in the shaft and the driver I ended up with is the best driver I have ever hit.
Ever hit one driver great and than go back to the store and hit the same model but not the exact same one and hit the ball so poorly you are wondering what's wrong with the world? It may have been the first driver had the shaft installed in the best possible position and the other one didn't. It happened to me, I was demoing a stiff flex and a regular flex Cleveland 330 driver and each head had the plastice wrapper on it still. After hitting about 15 balls with each the balls had made a imprint in the plastic wrapper. The impact areas on the stiff shafted driver was half the size as the area on the regular flex driver. Any idea which one I purchased? So if you ever demo a driver in the store and hit it well, don't let the saleperson get you a NICE NEW ONE IN THE WRAPPER, insist one buying the one you just hit well. It can make a big difference in your game.
I read Golg Digest, Golf Illistrated, and Golf Magazine and PGA Tour Partners club's magazine. They each have some good stuff and a lot of crap mixed in. And they contridict themselves and each other all the time, so you have to be careful with what you believe.
I have a good one for you guys that makes no sense to me. I have been hitting my irons the same distance for over five months, and yesterday I went out and hit all my short irons (GW-7 iron) 15 yards longer. I normally hit my PW 120 yards and I was flying the ball over the 120 marker at my range. I had to go down to my GW which is 105 carry, and it was right at the 120 marker. My 8 iron went from 150 to 165 yards and I have no idea why. I'm not complaining of course, but it would be nice to know why and if it will keep happening for the next 20 years or so. I hit my 3 wood 220-240 yards carry yesterday also, and that's longer than normal also. No idea why, but I like it. Big problem is I have a tournament next Saturday and I no idea which set of irons are going to show up, my old ones or the new nuke powered one? So if I may ask you all, Next Saturday at 1:00PM MDT, please face toward Colorado and pray I can pick the right club each time.

Don,

What did you have for breakfast? Frosted Steroids? Is that Saturday the 11th or the 18th? I wouldn't want to waste a perfectly good golf prayer on the wrong day.

JW

That's the 18th and thanks in advance for the prayer, I'm sure I'll need it. Was the question on steriods because of my extra 15 yards or the long winded post????

Sorry I don't follow the world of Vijay the way you do, but the point I was trying to make is he doesn't use a 460cc driver. And if I'm not mistaken AGAIN, neither the r510 nor the r7 is a 460cc driver. Maybe if Singh would stop wearing a Cleveland hat, I would have noticed he wasn't using a Cleveland driver at this time. And if you are going to call someone a moron, you should make sure you don't have spelling errors and use poor grammar in your post. And do you have any manners at all?

Play nice, boys.

Hacker - Calling someone a moron this early into the game is a bit much - and please try to watch your spelling and grammar. A lot of us finished school before Al Gore invented the internet, so we have a hard time with email and pda shorthand. We still speak in full sentences and can do math without a calculator, although we sometimes have to use our toes.

As for Vijay, the What's in the Bag? page on TGC goes back about 5 years and has him changing drivers more often than Jennifer Lopez changes husbands. Here's a partial list:

1998, 1999 Titleist 975D
2000 Mizuno 300S
2001 Cleveland
2002 TaylorMade 500
2003 TaylorMade R510
2004 TaylorMade R510, R7

The constant seems to have been his Cleveland TA1 irons, which explains the Cleveland headgear. The big player equipment contracts are usually for irons, rarely for drivers.

JW

JW; Thanks for the info on the hats and being for iron use, nice to know that and will keep it in mind next time I see a lot of Cleveland hats on Tour. Type at you later.

All you fellas know a lot more than I do about golf clubs and shafts, however, I bought a swing
weight guage and some lead tape. Try 3-4 strips
of tape on the bottom of your driver or three wood
below the face. No more slice. You don't have to send me any money for this tip.
andy

For Don, jjw901, and thebigcorn,
I've used several Golfsmith heads in the 400cc range. All fine products, and no problems controlling them with a Grafalloy ProLite 35 shaft. If you are looking for something new to try, look into www.wishongolf.com. Tom Wishon used to be a designer for Golfsmith, and may have even designed some of the clubheads you have tried before starting his own company fairly recently. He is big on quality control, and he or his associate answer your email questions personally.
I think you would like the following models:
515 GRT, which is 360cc or 395cc depending on loft. A nifty theory on clubface roll: check the website.
915CFE, available in 360cc or 420cc
949G/Ti which is a titanium/graphite composite at 390cc in 10.5*, but has a high launch angle due to weight placed back and low.
If you like Golfsmith, I think that you will really like WISHONGOLF.COM, and quality and customer service have been excellent based on my experience. Joe Golfer

Joe G,

I'm very familiar with Tom Wishon's work at Golfsmith. Their quality control was good pre-Tom, but in my opinion got even better under his control. In some cases, their tolerances were tighter than the OEMs.

What I really miss, though, are Tom's contributions to The Clubmaker. He always had a way of breaking technical jargon down to an understandable level. I'm in IT so I know how tricky that can be.

JW

One of the problems with the big driver heads is a lack of workability with your driver. My current driver is a Snake Eyes 600TC with 12* of loft. I have an Aldila NV65 R flex shaft in it, just for the record. I was out at the driving range yesterday working on my long game, hitting driver, 3 & 7 Woods. Decided to see if I could work the ball left to right with the driver, something that is rather hard to do with most drivers over about 360cc's. The 600TC is 420cc. When I hit the first ball with the club face open about 20 degrees, the ball started out way left of the target and then it curved right back to the right as intended and exactly landed to the right of my target. The ball curved more than 60 yards left to right. I was lined up to a yardage marker at 175 yards and about 50 yards left of my intended landing area. The next few balls did the same thing. So if you are having trouble hitting a high fade with your oversize driver, you might want to check out the 600TC. Golfsmith didn't lie when they rated it high in forgiveness and workability both, it sure doesn't disappoint in either department. And the price isn't too bad either, the head sells for around $115.00, can't remember the exact price at the moment. Depending on the shaft you like, the total will come to $150.00 to $200.00. That's a lot less than most OEM drivers. Did I mention Christmas is coming soon? You might want to tell your better half you want a new toy for under the tree. Good luck with that line.

Hi! i am considering a 460CC head vs 380cc head too.

I tried a callaway big bertha 454 and a S-yard TX-1(460cc).The japanese make S-yard is lighter and handling is better.Does this mean if handling is good,a 460cc head can still be considered for purchase?

thanks